Vote on church concordat

Do you approve that I sign this concordat with the church?

Quote :

I. The church's role in the spiritual life of the county.

Section 1.
The Concordat makes the Universal Roman Aristotelian Church the official religion in the county of Somerset.

Section 2.
Being the only legitimate religion (OOC: by coding), URAC only can answer spiritual questions in the universal community.

We only recognize the legitimacy and tolerance of the Spinozist faith and Averroes's faith.

For the faithful drowning in heretical mistake, our preaching, our faith, our pious acts will be our only answer. They are free to ignore Aristotle precepts, but the Aristotelian community will make a commitment to wisely and peacefully carry back these lost souls to our churches and our cathedrals.

The spiritual field is the sole responsibility of the Aristotelian Church.

II. The Church's role in the temporal organization of the county.

Section 3.
A place in the town hall can be reserved for the parish's priest and a place to the councils of mayors for the bishop. They will be able to participate actively to the proceedings to defend the church's interests. However if a church member would break section 5 or 6 he would be after a vote by Somerset’s council, destituted from his rights in the town hall or council of mayors.

Section 4.
If the council does not have a church representative through the normal election process, the council will accept a representative of the church that will have access and discussion rights, but no vote.They will be able to participate actively with the debates to defend the church interests.
However if a church member would break section 5 or 6 he would be after a vote by Somerset's council, destituted from his rights in the council.

Section 5.
The church representative, as a member of a county's council, could be entrusted with duties by the count or the mayor or the Parliament's president if these duties do not conflict with the ecclesiastic values.

Section 6.
Before taking positions, the priests and bishops will pledge a vow as such:
« I swear and promise to God, on the Book of Virtues, to not have any intelligence, to not have any relationship inside or outside the county which would be contrary to the public order. If in my parish or my diocese or elsewhere, I hear about any conspiracy against the county, then I would inform the council.»

Section 7.

By this oath, the ecclesiastics who participate in the councils pledge not to reveal any information that could imply civil security breach.
Any break to this rule could be brought to a High court of justice for High treason.
However if the information known by the ecclesiastics could endanger the Vatican, the church interests, are contrary to the church values, or are obtained under the secrecy of confession, then the council could not accuse the said ecclesiastics. In case of serious conflict between the council and the Vatican, the council can vote the temporary exclusion of the bishop from the council.


III. The church's role in the temporal life

Section 8.
Aristotelian weddings are the only legal marriage. A deed will be kept in the county's registers. It is the Church's representatives' responsibility to provide a copy of the Aristotelian marriage deed.

Section 9.
The church has a mission to help the most deprived. As such, the church's representatives shall actively participate to help the people and as much as possible coordinate their efforts with the temporal authorities.

Section 10.
The Church has a mission to participate as actively as possible to the people’s education. It can be done in the university or by craftsmen or nobles of higher rank. However the other ecclesiastics can teach outside the university in their town.

Section 11.
The church has a mission to bury the dead and to give them the last sacraments.

Section 12.
Members of the clergy are allowed to join and promote political parties and to stand for office. However, they are always to keep the matters of the church as the top priority, they should conduct themselves in a manner suitable for men of Jah in all debates and in office.

The use of preaching and church boards should not be used for political reasons without authorization of the bishop of the diocese in which the activity takes place and the bishop or religious superior of the clergy performing the activity (usually it will be allowed against groups that are officially declared by the Episcopal Assembly as heretical).

If a member of the clergy is found to be in fault of the above then his bishop or religious superior should be notified. The matter may also be brought to the attention of other members of the Episcopal Assembly.


IV. The English's church functioning

Section 13.
The church is represented by the Holy Pope. The Roman Curia is the parliament of the Church. The English Speaking Pontifical Assembly oversees canon law in England and with the help of the Episcopal Assembly, oversees the operation of the church.

Section 14.
The archdiocese is run by the metropolitan bishop, nominated by the pope in this position. He nominates his priests and his diocese's council.

All dioceses are run by the bishops, nominated by the Episcopal Assembly. He nominates his priests and his diocese's council.

Section 15.
The respect of the ecclesiastic hierarchy shall be respected for all relations between the Church and the temporal authorities.

Vote open for two days

Yes

No

I do not believe we have the right to force the town councils to accept the town priest into closed door town council meetings. I belive that is the town's choice

Likewise I do not belive we have the right to force the consortium of Mayors to allow the Bishop into their council.

and I am not satisfied with the Church being the sole deciding party as to which Church Clergy they place in county council meetings. I believe the Party chosen should be acceptable to both Council and Church.

Neither am I satisfied with the fact that SPECIFIC penalty for the abuse of the pulpit is not included. The language in regard to that issue is very vague. It simply states they will be reported to their Bishop not that any specific punishment is set for the offense.

No. I vote against it both echoing Ellsbeth's points, and, as well, my unwillingness to disallow Spinozist and Averroes's faith to conduct marriages.

To elaborate on Ellsbeth's points, LJS has spoken on this (though with the forums down I can't find it), and this intrusion on the Temporal Life by the church is NOT in line with his (as I recall) stated decision.

you can vote against, but this concordat is the same use in France that many county have sign and we modify some point about the council representative. But since is the first in england that why i ask if anyone have modfication suggestion.

Quote :

-The Cleric is completely independant of the non-religious lords, there can be no interference. They are linked only by a possible concordat.

Taken from the Canon Law of the Church.

A concordant is possible but not required.

I am all for working with the Church and for having them keeping abreast of the local climate and the local issues as we saw how distant they were from having any knowledge of Somerset in the Father Teagan scandal when it took 3 decrees from the Church to reach a point where they were speaking with any genuine knowledge of BOTH sides of the issue, but I do feel that some compromise and safeguards are necessary in the above proposed concordant before I would feel the peoples interests were genuinely served.

Yes, on my part i do not see anything wrong.

No, for reasons already stated by others.

I believe in the separation of church and state. The two can work hand in hand for the good without forcing council, mayors, and the citizens to be subject to something that could cause problems for them. We have seen these situations in parliament in the past.

As Justinian pointed out we are dealing with the man moreso then the concord.
Bishops and priests are transitory. They turn over often. There are still towns in the new counties without priests.
The church seems to have it's hands full conducting it's own business as we have seen without including them in the governments business as well.

I respect everyone opinion here, i just want to point out that in the 1400's the church had heavy influence over gouverment/royalty. I know it's a game but i believe if we want to keep the spirit of the time period we should allow them a place. I don't remember which political party made the scroller about they want to rp like the 1400 and not the 21st centory well it's actualy the case here. It may be not rp but it fits the time period.

Dralon, Allikath is very correct however when she points out the Church has aptly demonstrated it has its hands full with its own business and there are posts board wide that serve as evidence they are confused themselves on who is supposed to be doing what and why in their own orgranization.

I personally have mails from 2 Bishops that contradict the other on what the Church stated to each their role was to be in the Teagan case.

I have nothing against the Church...Obviously as I am a Lay Canon but I am notconvinced they are organized enough to take on a new can of worms with state matters.

the left hand and the right hand are not communicating with one another and to allow them to step into State affairs which are a delicate web of diplomacy at best already is just begging for trouble of even more miscommunication.

YES I do undserstand the RP of the Era demands we have a central church that is hugely influential for the ambience of the era BUT we have to consider the greater good of the game here and the people who will be subjected to this change and for me that overrides the inclusion of Church at this point until they demonstrate a cohesive enviroment themselves.

This concordat didn't pass return to discussion abotu change suggestion thank you