The SAS Meat Programme

I would like to review the SAS meat programme.
I am not questioning whether we want to help our SAS soldiers to become strong, but I think we should consider other ways of encouraging this.

The current method requires SAS soldiers to apply for grants of meat from the Trade Minister. These grants can then lie around for some time (especially if large amounts of meat are given at once), which makes it impossible for those soldiers to be given grants for other purposes, such as Town Hall security, emergency fodder purchases, etc. The SAS collects figures on strength levels of troops, but these are not available to many people, in particular, the numbers are not available to the Trade Minister or Sheriff responsible for the cost of the program. This means we have no way of evaluating its effectiveness. It could be that some soldiers are wasting the cheap meat by forgetting to eat some days, or it could be that we have just a few troops with high strength and many others at levels below the thresholds which we would prefer.

What I would like to see is that we set certain strength requirements for troops to attain to, and then when those thresholds are met we reward the soldier with a reward, perhaps of money, payable only once per soldier for each threshhold ( in case they fall back and pass the same level several times). The administration of this would be more effective, and take the burden of daily meat grants off the Trade Minister, since the captain could issue directives to the Sheriff or Trade Minister to pay out to those soldiers reaching the targets, making payouts less frequent and time consuming. It would also encourage SAS troops to report their stats and make the programme appear more fair to the public. It would also mean that the threshold rewarding stats reports could be verified (by screenshot requirements), something not done presently.
Another advantage of my suggestion is that by not providing the meat ourselves, we would leave meat markets to operate more freely, thereby not favouring any particular butchers, whilst at the same time increasing the demand for their meat from those in the SAS, whom we trust to use their strength properly.

I propose that the commanders of the SAS consider these ideas, and that they should be the ones to propose threshhold levels and rewards for the troops reaching them, so that the council as a whole can agree to the cost and value effectiveness of the programme.
The rewards need not be monetary, but could be in the form of (cheap or free) swords or shields say, or even one-time grants of meat.

The council may also wish to set a limit on either the time duration for the programme before a further review, or on a cost to be incurred before a further review. This would be more fiscally prudent than the current open-ended and largely unmeasurable nature of the programme.

I would appreciate your thoughts on this.

Grants of meat could be cancelled in an emergency situation so I do not see that as an impediment. They could deal with the emergency and then request the meat grant back.

I do not have a membership nor do I want one with photoshop or bucket or where ever. So I would be left out of this new program. Note, I have not taken advantage of the SAS meat program either so it makes no difference to me. I do not know how many others are like me.

I think that the meat program has been a good recruiting tool for the SAS, a monetary reward program would likely be as well.

I do not make the stats available in general as I had some complaints that the bad guys could some how get this information so I assured my members that the info would not be posted anywhere. However, we could make it available to the Trade Minister if that is our wish.

I do not see rewarding the butchers in Somerset that are willing to work for the SAS as a bad thing. They supply cheaper meat as I understand it. This frees the public market for the other butchers as they no longer compete with the meat produced by the SAS butchers. So I think this part of the meat program is the finest part. It increases the strength of our members. It increases the demand for meat in general as I am sure many soldiers are building strength quicker than they otherwise would have. It provides profit to all butchers in Somerset in the end.

I see subsidising butchers and subsidising soldiers strength as two separate issues. My aim is to clarify things like that, not to try to get rid of them. If the council deems it suitable to reward SAS butchers, why not also SAS weavers and blacksmiths etc? I feel that the programme was a good idea when first introduced, but several different ideas got mixed together, and the programme can now be improved. I also feel we owe it to people to tell them about how much we pay to subsidise SAS butchers and soldiers. And note that this does not mean we have to do screenprints to prevent cheating, just that it would be an option, useful in case we suspect someone of abusing the programme. The current rules make no provision for dealing with any abuses.
Neither does the SAS need to make stats public knowledge. If the commanders so wish they can keep the reporting of statistics as it is - the difference would be that they would need to record who had received subsidies for reaching targets, which would make the programme more accountable. The ministers need only be told by the captain (or his authorised delegate) to award certain soldiers their rewards at threshold points, not what everyone's stats are.

I also have not taken personal advantage of the SAS meat programme, and I would be interested to learn how many others are like Gregarious and myself in that respect, because that information could help us improve the programme.

The way it's done now is perfectly fair. All SAS members may request a grant of meat, and may keep it until they're done with it. I do monitor those grants, and sometimes remind people to return the completed grants ...

Too, this is very easy. Members post their requests. Every couple of days i go through and grant the requested quantities. Anything else requires more work by more people.

Butchers are not particularly subsidized; if one works for the SAS program, they earn 22 pounds. The county purchases meat at 17.70 from the towns if available, also HHW at 15.50 or HW at 31.00. Those can be granted to butchers along with 22 pounds to convert to meat at that same 17.70 price. Nobody's getting rich here.

Similarly, weavers and blacksmiths aren't subsidized. The council long since established a standard value for shields (65.00) and swords (200.00). We subsidize SAS members to buy those at 50 and 150 pounds respectively. Blacksmiths and weavers aren't subsidized save in that they make the items that are supplied to the SAS members (by their mayors, because trade ministers and sheriffs can't do anything with weaponry).

I see no inequity in this program, no way for it to be unfair to anyone. It works, it's easy, requiring very little added effort from any of the people involved, and it's been an effective inducement to entice people to join the SAS.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. And it ain't broke.

Oh, in the interests of disclosure, i've made use of the program a few times. Those are archived in the request thread, for any who care enough to read through that.

Nobody was saying the meat programme was 'broke'. I was suggesting it could be improved, by more reporting of costs, more accountability to the people of Somerset and to the council which authorises the costs, separation of subsidy types, and possible improvements to the administration methods and controls available to the SAS. Thank you for explaining the status quo for those who may not have known it. Do you have any comments about my suggestions, or do you feel that the programme is as perfect as it could be for all time? And if it is the best programme possible, do you also not feel that more could be done to explain this to people in Somerset who may not see it that way?

I like the program, personally I haven't used it yet tho lol and my strength is really high, maybe I should before we do away with it. I personally see no need for change, this has been brought up nearly EVERY council since its inception, why can't we just leave it alone? It's working fine...

What people of Somerset are those, Vana? I read the forums, and have yet to see calls for greater explanation of the meat subsidy program. As for reports, we subsidize ALL members of the SAS at 1.7 pounds per piece of meat, and if you wish to compute and report those amounts, you need only go to the SAS administration quarter, count the number of pieces requested during any given time period, mulitiply by 1.7, and voila! You'll have your numbers, and won't have caused me the additional work of such reporting.

wait for my return home, still outside town and cannot look into, but if it<S me the captain i should check into that.

And i want to remind every people have job to do related to the domaine their are.

First who is the clerk of the county loand, here is the vote asked by laws at each begin term about the amount each type of loan have available form the county...

What is the plan of defense by the constable, is there idea of having a team of marshals patroling the road of somerset, that way we don<T need people not paid of SAS for doing so ...

each position have something to do at least in the first week of each council. please concrate yourself on your duty then after that look into the thing related to other thank you

Gregarious wrote:

Grants of meat could be cancelled in an emergency situation so I do not see that as an impediment. They could deal with the emergency and then request the meat grant back.

I do not have a membership nor do I want one with photoshop or bucket or where ever. So I would be left out of this new program. Note, I have not taken advantage of the SAS meat program either so it makes no difference to me. I do not know how many others are like me.

I think that the meat program has been a good recruiting tool for the SAS, a monetary reward program would likely be as well.

I do not make the stats available in general as I had some complaints that the bad guys could some how get this information so I assured my members that the info would not be posted anywhere. However, we could make it available to the Trade Minister if that is our wish.

I do not see rewarding the butchers in Somerset that are willing to work for the SAS as a bad thing. They supply cheaper meat as I understand it. This frees the public market for the other butchers as they no longer compete with the meat produced by the SAS butchers. So I think this part of the meat program is the finest part. It increases the strength of our members. It increases the demand for meat in general as I am sure many soldiers are building strength quicker than they otherwise would have. It provides profit to all butchers in Somerset in the end.

I think Vana has a great plan here. A membership with photo bucket is free and in all the time I have been a member of photobucket, I have never received a single e-mail from them lol. Really, to play this level of RK, the screen shot and upload ability is very helpful. What if you need to report a crime and have evidence. That is a poor reason to dismiss a great idea.

Vana's great idea requires more work on the part of the people who are willing to risk themselves to defend our homes. It requires more work on the part of the Trade Minister. It requires more effort all the way down the line.

It ain't broke. Don't fix what ain't broke. I don't see the point of any of this, save to make it more difficult for the council to subsidize our main line of defense strengthening itself. What we have now is a system easy to use, clearly understandable (and many people have difficulty with photobucket or imageshack), and available to all who are willing to commit to the defense of Somerset.

Are you all in love with complication for its own sake?

Perhaps at this level it is helpful to have photobucket. I only said I do not want one. I do not think that adding layer upon layer of bureaucracy to something that is working is a good idea.

Screenshots are not a requirement of my great idea, just an optional added possibility to cover cases of suspected abuse. The levels of strength can be reported as at present through the SAS command hierarchy. I never said the existing programme was broken. But do we need to wait until someone really abuses the programme and breaks it before we can even consider any improvements? I just feel Somerset can lead the way with innovation and ideas if we allow ourselves to consider suggestions for change without getting too defensive. If you really see no merit at all in my suggestions then I would like to know why the existing scheme is better. As for 'all the extra work and bureaucracy' that has been mentioned, I'm not sure where that's coming from. At the moment the TM has to deal with every two points of strength for every soldier. With strength threshold subsidies instead, the involvement would only be every 20 or 50 or whatever points. The soldier wanting the subsidy can still claim it. His SAS commander would be able to check whether he had claimed it before, but even if he didn't check we'd be no worse off than at present. So I think my idea can reduce our work. And freeing people to take other kinds of grants is a benefit too, because having to ask people to cancel them to deal with emergencies and then reapply for them is messy to say the least. Getting the overall number of grants down is a benefit to the bureaucracy too, even though our hard working TM doesn't seem to mind at the moment.

I do not agree with any action that requires any player to subscribe to any outside service.

People should not be forced to acquire or maintain a photo sharing account or IM account or what have you to be able to participate in any aspect of this game. It creates a discrimination factor that should not exist.

The game should be able to to be played in and of itself between the actual game site and the forums. I am not even a great fan of off site forums.

The more tedious you make the task the less interest it garners. Most people who play RK play it because it is NOT one of the time intensive RPGs out there.

the main idea of meat programs is to have s tronger army, but also to have a little bonus for people that do patrol with out been paid, that offer themself to efend somerset with out return, ect ect ... limited such is like saying to people of SAs we don<t care about you and your time giving to us.

Really a bad message to sent. And like i said i will check into that when i am back at home that means tomorrow night after reset thank

We have one post for a request and then one grant from the TM. One person and one grant right now. You idea adds at least one more person in the commander to the equation. It is complicating the issue.

For the number of soldiers we have I do not think we have a large number taking advantage of the program as is. Complicating it would, in my opinion, result in even less up take. I think that we have a elegant and workable system now.

"I get the feeling people didn't even read my last post before arguing against their own version of my idea."

Naïve Vana sighs and goes and sits in a corner.

I'm sorry you feel that way Vana. I always read your post very carefully. It's just in this case you mention the commander checking to see if the person has already applied for the subsidies, this is another thing for the commander to track. Possibly easy, possibly not.

Screen shots for suspected abuse. I prefer to trust our soldiers to use the subsidies for their intended purpose. Even if they are not what can they make 1/2 a pound on each piece of meat? Not a great gain, not enough to encourage abuse.

the trade minister only deals with the soldiers that avail themselves of the program, that is not an overwhelming workload as far as I have seen.

I am constantly carrying grants for Bath. Cancelling them and getting new ones. Again this is no hardship for the grantee, especially with regards to my understanding of the meat grant. The meat is there the money is there. Just one click and all the goods are back with the TM. Then they are free to take another grant from somewhere else.

Just some random thoughts but be assured your thoughts, at least by me, are watched and appreciated. In this case I just do not agree is all.