Censure of Councilor Krelian

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krelian wrote:

budicca wrote:

It is too easy to abuse, in order to sullie someones reputation. I don't think it can be reformed; it should be repealed.

Milady, the origional remarks that cause the suit to be filed sully the reputation of the plantiff. You are so worried about saving the reputation of the accused, since it is your friend and duchess, that you fail to see the logic in this law. You yourself are arguing that it shouldn't be allowed as it sullies one's reputation. Yet, by your logic, someone should be allowed of accusing another person of blackmail and being associated with a rebel army, things that sully a person's reputation MUCH more than having a case brought against them. Yet by your logic, the accuser should be allowed to say whatever they wish to sully the reputation of the accused, yet should the accused take action against the accuser this is wrong as it sullies the reputation of the accusor. This logic is severly flawed and just plain wrong.

Also, everyone says "security this" and "security that" because i mentioned it in the PP thread. I didn't post screenshots because since we were discussing a rebel army, something that would be a security risk should all the information get out, I chose not to post them as I could easily be charged with treason for divulging state secrets had I done so. However, it is incredibly illogical to say I am hiding evidence. Frankly, the only witnesses were counsilors, and OH MY GOD!!! Guess what guys, the only people who try the case (witnesses, PP, and Judge) are counsilors and have access to the posts in question. Go figure, I mean I did say that, but of course, my trying not to divulge state secrets is obviously hiding evidence, when anyone that the evidence would be worth hiding it from can still see it.

Now then, it is obvious, as NO ONE but LoF supports the repeal or removal of this law that THIS is the true political manouver, not my filing the lawsuit. You simply seek to save your Duchess and grasp on power because if she is found guilty, she must step down, yet you accuse me of political manouvering because I filed a lawsuit after being accused of blackmail and being in cahoots with a rebel army. She has by far, sullied my reputation MUCH more than my lawsuit has sullied hers.

I support no changes or repeal of this law as it is very necessary.

If you are going to sullies someones reputation in public you can not use secret evidence that only the judge and PP can see. It must be there for all of Somerset to see! Thant is basic rights for all men and women in Somerset!"


I call for the censure of Krelian for reporting a crime against our Lady Dutchess in public w/o providing any evidence for the public to see. They see his charge, but no evidence, this is a violation of Citizen Allikath's right's as a citizen of England! I call for the removal of Krelian from the Council forum untill he either withdraws this charge or provides the evidence for all of Somerset to see!

Budicca is of course right. There can not and will not be any case presented without evidence presented in public trial. It is the fundamental right of all citizens.

As to any other action I will take it under advisement and hear what other councilors may have to say.

The RK forum does not have a law against any RP related MSN or other IM conversations being copied and pasted therein.

The King forbids only the pasting of IM conversations that contain RL allegations/informations.

if there is such evidence in the form of IM conversations on the side of either party in a dispute of this nature as they pertained to gaining council positions or favors which is a RP entity then let such be printed and they can be weighed on their own merit as such is not in violation of forum posting laws.

If there is not evidence to support these claims then let such be silenced.

I shall be posting all the evidence, however the screenshot of allikath's post will be small since part of it does contain sensitive material.

Okay, you've gotten what you wanted, evidence that proves my "soiling" of Her Grace's name is not soiling but the truth. Now then, since I've complied with your wishes, I would expect your group to comply with mine and file the case.

krelian wrote:

Okay, you've gotten what you wanted, evidence that proves my "soiling" of Her Grace's name is not soiling but the truth. Now then, since I've complied with your wishes, I would expect your group to comply with mine and file the case.

Your so called evidence only supports the fact that you did indeed attempt to gain a favour for a service provide; the definition of blackmail!

krelian wrote:

Okay, you've gotten what you wanted, evidence that proves my "soiling" of Her Grace's name is not soiling but the truth. Now then, since I've complied with your wishes, I would expect your group to comply with mine and file the case.

You need to drop this matter now!~ No one defamed you and no one has wasted the courts time with a defamation suit even though you clearly have defamed the honour of our Dutchess with these unsupported charges!

Where is the PP on this matter; why is he absent for Council?

The PP shows to have logged into the game itself today but I have not seen him here or in private council Counsellor Buddica since Saturday.

He did post earlier here today in Bristol in his town council forum a search of posts shows.



As Judge however I did reply to this display of "evidence" on the main forum and will copy that response here

Ellsbeth wrote:

I am not the current PP but as the current Judge I will offer this

Just as last term when I could not prosecute Hypno for what he might have implied in a statement he made in regard to Buddica I cannot adjudicate in this current matter either on a statement that Allikath has made that might have been less than truthful or noble implications about Hypno.

Also I cannot and please if I have missed it, then point it out but I cannot see where Krelian has offered his services in exchange for anything at all. I see an offer by Krelian to infiltrate. I see an acceptance by Allikath of this offer but I see no strings attatched to the offer or given in acceptance of the offer.

I do not see anything at all about the Sheriffs position being asked for in any of the posted material save the allegation that it did occur.

As it stands I do not personally find any actionable offenses unless there is more to offer that has not been shown.

Thank You Judge Ellsbeth,
That exchange about his attempts to get the sheriff's job was in msn conversation.
As you know I record all my msn conversations and will gladly post them here in their entire form so the conversation can be evaluated on it's own merit.
I would rather not do that but will if the council wishes.

It is my hope that this will be put aside so we may return to council business. I have refrained from filing charges against Krelian for defamation in filing a false suit against me that is unfounded and groundless for this very reason.

However my patience is not limitless and if he continues to persist in any form of harrassment or continued dissension in this hall I will be forced to consider sanctions.
There is precedence for such action in council in the past when Lord Hypno as Duke removed Dani..D from council chambers for his continuous disruptions and Dani did not also commit defamation against the Duke.

His actions and false accusations in public are an embarrassment to himself, this council, and the Duchy.

It is my hope that this be laid to rest and we can go about our business at hand.
It is my belief however that at the very least Krelian owes apologies to Lord Hypno and myself.

I shan't appologize to anyone for anything. I have rightfully filed a lawsuit. You implied hypno and myself were in cahoots with the rebel army, and you accused me of black mail. I do not know where you people get your dictionaries, but saying "hey if i do ____, will that merit me getting _____" is NOT blackmail. And yes, I asked if I infiltrated if I could be rewarded with the sheriff position as Allikath said positions were earned by service, etc. etc.

I have in no way defamed you, but brought to light your own misdeeds. The mere fact that you seek to have me silenced is an abuse of power. Let the case go to trial, if you are so sure that you have done nothing wrong, then why are you so scared to go to trial?

Someone please explain to me how accusing myself and lord hypno of being in cahoots with a rebel army, and accusing me of blackmail, all of which with no proof behind the statements, is NOT defamation.

no laws said that evidence have to be public, and further more why legacl counsel need to be approve if is not for case here eveidence cannot be provide to open public, example, county security, agent of intel service of somerset making testimonay and need to remain annonymous for not blow up cover that take year to build ect ect.


So don't try use that kind of thing to block a demand, and anyway what you do complain about it, is the job of the pp to evualuate if a case is worth or not ...

Do you have doubt about the ability of the PP to makes judgement call if a case is worthy or not...

Gesssh some need to takes a break and believe in other counsellor further more other counsellor of the same party then them...

Hypno wrote:

no laws said that evidence have to be public, and further more why legacl counsel need to be approve if is not for case here eveidence cannot be provide to open public, example, county security, agent of intel service of somerset making testimonay and need to remain annonymous for not blow up cover that take year to build ect ect.


So don't try use that kind of thing to block a demand, and anyway what you do complain about it, is the job of the pp to evualuate if a case is worth or not ...

Do you have doubt about the ability of the PP to makes judgement call if a case is worthy or not...

Gesssh some need to takes a break and believe in other counsellor further more other counsellor of the same party then them...

You surprise and disappointment me, but at least you are willing to admitt to all of Somerset that you would be comfortable with secret evidence in a public trail. I know of no precendent for the use of secret evidence in a public, civlian trial. I will propose jsut such a law prohibiting the use of any unpublished evidence in a public lawsuit. The notion that secret evidence could be used in a Somserset trail is a very chilling one.

(ooc. I have made a few apologies in different forum locations, but none yet in the public council forum. There have been many calls like, "Where is the PP". I apologize for my tardiness. I was away for some time irl, and have been tirelessly catching up with all my rl and rk reading/work. I assure you that I will get to all cases presented in my office. I thank your Honor Ellsbeth for stepping in with information for the public in the RK Somerset PP thread. Again, I apologize for the delay, but justice takes a little time every once in a while. Thank you to the good People of Somerset for their patience.)

anyone can provide secret evidence budicca, but like i said is up to the PP or judge to decide if they remain secret, logically any pp or judge will never let a cover get blow out.

What I said is let this people handle it, you seem to makes it personal you yelling everywhere like you have something to defend.

Believe in the system, if their is no case, the PP will do is job if not the judge is still there to said yeah there is something wrong.

By going hysteric like you have done in the past day budicca, you makes look like this case is a major importance when mostly we all agree there is not case there including the judge that is SNP ...

So calm down, takes some prozac and chill. Stop jumping in face and going immediatly at war with anything you feel is wrong each in council have job and i am confident each of them will do formidable job if you let them do it.

Any PM is there if you are not sure or have question ... next time use it, or at least wait for the PP to makes statement before blowing thing out of proposition

Hypno wrote:

anyone can provide secret evidence budicca, but like i said is up to the PP or judge to decide if they remain secret, logically any pp or judge will never let a cover get blow out.

What I said is let this people handle it, you seem to makes it personal you yelling everywhere like you have something to defend.

Believe in the system, if their is no case, the PP will do is job if not the judge is still there to said yeah there is something wrong.

By going hysteric like you have done in the past day budicca, you makes look like this case is a major importance when mostly we all agree there is not case there including the judge that is SNP ...

So calm down, takes some prozac and chill. Stop jumping in face and going immediatly at war with anything you feel is wrong each in council have job and i am confident each of them will do formidable job if you let them do it.

Any PM is there if you are not sure or have question ... next time use it, or at least wait for the PP to makes statement before blowing thing out of proposition

No if this had happened in public then I would support Krelian's arttempt at what he precieves as justice; this all took place in private and he wished to prosecute based on non-public evidence in a public court. My calling that to account is not Hysteria. Suggesting that Somerset may experience a mass exodus or the SAS may experience mass dissention; now that is HYSTERIA. I know you are not very fond of me, fine, but you have called me out by name in too many of your recent post. You have accused me of being aggressive and Hysterical and I really wish you would make a public apology for your harsh words. You are the only person who has ever called me hysterical, even irl