Citizens inquiry...

https://somerset.rpg-board.net/the-public-council-room-f42/mail-recieved-from-a-citizen-t1380.htm

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Forgive me. I saw this issue and a question came to mind. I must ask why this is even a major issue? Do not the citizens of Somerset visit taverns? Surely I see all citizens of this county visit at one point or another. What I see is the info. of this act has flown rather freely here.

Perhaps the main issue is being missed? I to would like to know what the current mayors and councilers are recommending be done on this issue.

As I joke with Justian. Perhaps a way to change some laws and equal unification of our towns. Could instead pass our main taxes to certain merchants. What form of taxes are available in game coding? I remember a long ago income tax. As well as a long ago item tax. Niether of these worked so well. As the people found ways around them as well.

Could you please inform us what is options available. Other wise other ideas would take a unity to master that is just not a viable option I see here with our current leaders? Please councilers answer here as well as rk forums. As many of us perfer not to use rk forums.

The only taxes available to the towns are essentially property taxes. They can be assessed against workshops and fields, that I know of. Tavern taxes go to the county, as do the fees for buying from the County Fair. Court fines still go to the king (are removed from the game).

One major problem with taxing at the town level is that if they aren't paid within a week or so, interest starts to accumulate. For those citizens in retreat, this can result in a staggering tax bill when they return. Also, I don't think that you can vote when you have unpaid taxes (not tested by me, i read it somewhere, but don't know if this is true).

As far as Patrons govern this County, Taxation will not implement in towns.

I think this is a clear issue for us as a challenge to work better for the benefit of the citizens.

I know that there were comments from Councilors of the opposition to implement taxation system in towns and I know that this is mostly to the Mayors of each town to decide but i know we can work together for this issue and we finance them enough and we will in the future for their expenses.

But this is our main difference with some other parties; The Patrons support the towns with funds and don't seek or think to implement Taxation systems in any way on properties that will reduce the incomes of some citizens.

This I repeat is a challenge for us to see how each one of us can help this County.

We are elected to help with our knowledge these people to live better and have all their incomes untouched, so if someone want to throw the new rules of the King to the citizens - the easy way for someone to say , I won’t spend a minute to think something to raise our incomes but I wont mind to pass the expenses to the Citizens - then I think there is no purpose for someone with this kind of attitude to involve in Politics in Somerset.
Better to give his place to some minds that can help Somerset be better.

And what, if I may ask, would the Patrons governing the County do if a mayor decided that taxes would be beneficial for the town? As far as I know the use of taxes isn't illegal.

LadyMarshmellow wrote:

And what, if I may ask, would the Patrons governing the County do if a mayor decided that taxes would be beneficial for the town? As far as I know the use of taxes isn't illegal.

Who said is illegal? It is an in game option,
Well, mayors can implement which system of finance or even level of security they want, its up to them to decide.
And up to the people to decide next term if they vote for them or not and of course if you ask me :to the county to ask the citizens and support this town with funds then or not.
Because County does that some terms now, support towns with cash for the benefit of the citizens and relief mayors from big responsibilities to make extra money, buying all their surpluses that they have for sale also.
Simple and plain as that, cuz in the past we had of course several mayors that work and some that they didn't.
Some of them make money, some of them not, so power for the seek of the power if you ask me is unacceptable.

In short, the County supports towns, but also through this, support and the Citizens that live in these towns, so what the purpose of Taxation?

Last I heard the county council doesn't have the authority to decide whether or not a mayor wants to use taxes.

I think Justin's trying to split the parties again for his own personal political agendas, making his own party sound good whilst making the opposition look inferior, instead of trying to work in council as a team. No member of either party said anything about forcing mayors to implement taxes. As the rules of the game change it may be necessary one day for mayors to fully utilize there options as mayor, including taxes, to make the town profitable over time. That decision of course would be up to the individual mayor, and therefore the citizenry of the town.

I calculated for Chard how much tax would be needed to offset the 50 pound per day new fee being added. It's 3.75 pounds per month per field or workshop, so 3.75 per level 1 and 11.25 for level 2/3 with 2 fields per month. That is not a huge tax, in fact its pretty insignificant.

Justin forgets that it was the entire council that voted in money for towns every month, not just the Patrons, so he should quit assuming that the opposition opposes everything the Patrons have ever done and trying to make it sound like the council is split on every discussion.

The decision to support towns with money was made before this additional fee was added, to support the towns themselves. If all that money is now redirected to paying the excess 50 pound/day fee that will be added shortly, the towns no longer have additional money to use as the program was originally intended. Whether or not the county is able to further support this additional fee has not been decided.

I am of course mildly offended by Justin's assumptions against the opposing party, but not particularly surprised to see him make such a statement in a supposedly non-political discussion.

As Chardonnay pointed out, the biggest problem with the tax system is the problem with people on retreat, even a 3.75 pound monthly tax would eventually pile up if one is on retreat for 3 months. (well, maybe, I guess I don't know what the interest rate is... does anyone?...)

Lord_Justinan wrote:

But this is our main difference with some other parties; The Patrons support the towns with funds and don't seek or think to implement Taxation systems in any way on properties that will reduce the incomes of some citizens.

Do you care to elaborate on this? If I am reading it correctly, you are lying to the people of Somerset. I will allow you to explain what exactly you mean, though, before that assumption comes to fruition.

Whispers, in Somerset, we have the privilege of having a well established county treasury, which can take care of our towns if/when necessary. Many of the newer counties do not have the luxury of being so relatively stress free. As with all new laws, time will tell the true details. As we learn more from our experience the people as a whole will have a better understanding of how to cope with the new laws. As far as we can tell now, the short term will not be scary for Somerset.

Thanks to Whispers for being an interested citizen!

For honesty!
Rebo

As a mayor I would never consider taxation as an option for economic instability.
As Justin said the economics of it is too costly to the citizens of the town. The TH is there for them.
In addition to the accrued arrearage applied to those in retreat, which would certainly lead them to quit the game when they came out of retreat, taxation would disrupt the financial stabiity of the town, the market, and it's citizens.
Farmers have a hard enough time making a profit from their fields sometimes already without adding an additional expense to them.
Certainly it would have an adverse effect on the market, price of goods would increase and be transferred to the tradespeople who would have to raise the price of their goods.
This would also have an adverse effect on trade as inflated priced goods would be unattractive to merchants.
Farmers would be forced to hire at lower wages to compensate in order to raise their profit margin.
There is no way to be selective in who gets taxed by determination of wealth.

Taxation is an in game feature but so is robbery and that is illegal. Perhaps the county would have jurisdiction over taxation in towns. It would be detrimental to the welfare of the town and the county as a whole.
Justin is right tho, if a mayor chooses taxation as a option the citizens have the right and the option to vote them out but how much damage would be done to the citizens and the town economics in 30 days.
This leaves them with only one short term solution, to move and a mass exodus will certainly not help the towns economics.

The mayor has options for being fiscally responsible. Help from the county, making responsible trades, working with the more influentual citizens to help out, and using the autosale properly. All better then taxation.

Of course I care to analyse this, see the discussion in Somerset Council in RK forum, my post of new rules of the game and my suggestions and see after that the suggestions of your Councilor and LOF party member Mikeblack.
For the first time he mentions taxation as a measure to avoid town losses, like we cannot find a way to fight with it and help our towns.

But don't go far, see that he even counts every cent that it will cost, ready to proceed and implement such a measure in Chard I suppose.

You really run out of fresh ideas and solutions to pull this and force people to taxation measures?

I hope at least you will ask them, or the future mayors will make clear statements about this so the citizens can choose an alternative or someone that he is really capable to earn money for the town.

It’s not about inferiority of LOF, not at all, but as all see from this discussion, solutions are short and finance was never the best card for LOF party anyway.


In one we can agree, we might in the future see really a need for some kind of taxation, but sure NOT NOW, when County can support our towns and be there for the people.
Even this small amount sounds bad in my ears and I am sure to a lot of people.

Want it or not Mikeblack, the empowerment of Towns with cash was a motion that Patrons put forward and I don't care if you support it or not, after all you couldn't do otherwise, Chard needed these money and you done well, but don't talk about cooperation here and teams.
If someone run your voting in each proposal it's easy to see what I am talking about.


Think about those who comes after a long period of retreat or those that will refuse and leave Somerset for some other County and town and we cannot allow a "forced" exodus this moment, we have enough each time a new County opens.
Somerset is a very healthy County and we are proud of our finance situation, shall WE force such a motion because some of us cannot work on an export plan for the towns via County?
But let’s don't discuss more for the obvious.
So my clear statement is that in any way I won't support any kind of Taxation to Citizens, can you open here promise the same?

Lord_Justinan wrote:

Of course I care to analyse this, see the discussion in Somerset Council in RK forum, my post of new rules of the game and my suggestions and see after that the suggestions of your Councilor and LOF party member Mikeblack.
For the first time he mentions taxation as a measure to avoid town losses, like we cannot find a way to fight with it and help our towns.

But don't go far, see that he even counts every cent that it will cost, ready to proceed and implement such a measure in Chard I suppose.

Let's see here. Okay, so I am in the Council room, and I assume you are referring to this post: http://forum.renaissancekingdoms.com/viewtopic.php?p=1318307#1318307 Since that is the only post he made in that thread. Here is exactly what he said (I added bold):

MikeBlack wrote:

If there is an oversupply of a food, use this to eat it up, and recommend more food is produced then currently across the board, giving more opportunities for level 2 work for instance. And perhaps be a bit more careful on out of county food export (everyones gonna want cheap food now).

Also I want to point out that the new rules also add a 50P/day town treasury loss, which may be significant for some towns, thats also 1500 pounds from each town treasury gone per month, which may deplete the treasuries fast as well, it may become important for the county to offset that loss in the future. Or perhaps town's may need to finally use their tax option to get by (which is an option of course).

Anyway, yes I think this rule will cause trouble, but I think Somerset is more prepared to deal with it then many other counties in England, since we have a strong economy, and the county is obviously making money over time at the moment (opposed to others that are still in debt or unable to boost their treasury)

Definitely recommend some sort of laws/rules on exporting food, and encouraging 2nd fields for food more food production.

I think the rules pretty much say that a bunch of food is needed for the councilors, but is just lost, so although the county needs the extra food, none of us actually gets it, it just disappears.

That is the post that makes the large difference between LoF and Patrons?! The fact that Mike said that perhaps we might keep in mind that there are other options?! Are you seriously searching that hard for differences between our parties? Or are you just trying to pull the wool over Somerset's people's eyes to make your party appear good, even though you clearly have made a false claim?

Lord_Justinan wrote:

It’s not about inferiority of LOF, not at all, but as all see from this discussion, solutions are short and finance was never the best card for LOF party anyway.

Wait, so in one breath you are saying it isn't about the inferiority of the opposition, and in the *same* sentence you are saying we are inferior when it comes to finances? Are you familiar with the term "sleight of hand?"

I am sure people will be upset that there is more talk about political parties, when it comes to a situation that has nothing to do with politics. I suppose I shouldn't have involved myself, but yet again Lord_Justinan is making a non-political issue about political parties, and yet again he is trying to make the opposition look bad. Yet again, it isn't true what he says about LoF. I felt it necessary to defend LoF against false claims.

I will be happy to bring the conversation back on topic - the new changes and taxes. Justinan, want to stop spreading lies about the opposition and discuss the topic at hand?

For honesty!
Rebo

see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_wise_monkeys

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Today "See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil" is commonly used to
describe someone who doesn't want to be involved in a situation, or
someone turning a willful blind eye to the immorality of an act in which they are involved.

For any fantasy readers, this is one from one of my favorite authors, Terry Goodkind, a book called Naked Empire, it actually revolves around the see no evil idea, and where it can bring a society:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naked_Empire
A society of people were banished from there homes because:

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This was done not because the people were pristinely ungifted, but because they "could not see evil" or, rather because they strongly embraced a philosophy which required them to disbelieve reality. They shunned all forms of violence, and judgment. They laid their lives down before any aggressor.

Its an interesting tale, and provides some good insight into the mentality of people who refuse to "see evil", and where it can lead a society.

Yes, language and cultural differences abound, but you can not hide behind that and refuse to face the truth.


As to something on topic: What can I say? Doesn't matter, it would be twisted around anyway, so I gave you all something interesting to read and think about. With the hopes that in the future people don't give in to this sort of manipulation so readily.

Looks around astonished at these vile words cursing her ears.

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Honestly you are only proving my point here. Please calm down for your citizens sake. I do not wish more flaming here. Nor do I wish this person calling that person a liar or snake. Honestly it is making me feel ill.

taking a breath in deeply.

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I know any mayor and yes I do dwell in Somerset. I believe same town as a couple of posters in this very thread. Who continually raged against the county. Surely would not get my vote again.

Taking a moment to contenplate further response.

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As far as I see. To my original post. Lord Justian was the only one to attempt to respond to my inquiry. I thank you Lord Justian. Instead of argue this tax, flame, call a liar, and ect. Lady Marshmellow attempted a question of her own. This makes me happy. The rest of you. Rather than add further aggressions. What ideas do you have instead?

Taking a sip of some sweet honey tea she finishes.

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I would like to say. I do not wish to know who is "lying" Nor who is what party. Instead I ask for idea only. Lady M and Lord Justian are correct. As voter of Somerset. I do have a vote. We are watching now more than ever. It shall not be only taxes that sway our vote, but attitudes as well. Thank you all.

The citizen in question has gone a step further and actually posted in Somerset Hall. I am the only one who has responded there.

http://forum.renaissancekingdoms.com/viewtopic.php?t=71262

Laughs hard.

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certainly he is a brave soul. Your response is very lovely Brighda.

smiles.

Chardonnay wrote:

The only taxes available to the towns are essentially property taxes. They can be assessed against workshops and fields, that I know of. Tavern taxes go to the county, as do the fees for buying from the County Fair. Court fines still go to the king (are removed from the game).

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Can the different taverns be taxed differently or are they all taxed in one level. Meaning can you tax a standard tavern different than a poker tavern? As well what is the ability of any to be able to tax merchants?

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If what you say about Tavern taxes going to the county. Then yes I feel the county should help the towns. Especially capitals that have such a limited source of income and basic commodity production. Still the county council being in charge of the masses of town. Should in fact be able to influence the towns. To a point. Unless said towns wish to break away and try to become their own sovern nation. In which case I do believe the kings view would be needed here.

Tavern taxes are set as a hard-coded part of the game. They aren't editable that I know of. Adding additional taxes to taverns would most likely result in a greatly reduced number of them in any case. I have a poker tavern in Bridgewater, second in popularity only to our famed Crossroads Inn, and it only does a bit better than breakeven. If the additional tax on poker taverns were actually implemented, I would be losing money on it every week. (There's an additional 20 pound/week tax that poker tavern owners are warned about, but it's never been assessed.)

Further, although Levan in his one extant post on the New Rules stated that there's a second set to come, and implied strongly that they would be posted on 24 Feb., those have not yet been posted. I have seen speculation that those rules will include some amelioration of the penalties imposed by the first set (waste, corruption, added costs to the counties by the requirement for additional state points). Until those rules are actually posted, though, I think this may be only wishful thinking.

FInally, and this is addressed to the members of the Council who have posted here, please save the campaign speeches for the elections. Once y'all are in office, you should be working as our Council, not as members of this or that party.

Brighda:

https://somerset.rpg-board.net/the-public-council-room-f42/mail-recieved-from-a-citizen-t1380.htm

I brought the mail to councils attention, only Marae responded that it would be a good idea to have the council have a statement, no one else from council said anything, until Justin came here and started "bad talking" the opposition, but *shrugs*, I tried to talk about it back on the main forum, sounds like Justin will only use my thoughts and work for negative purposes.

I don't blame Clust, as time has now passed with still no official response, I'd likely have done similarly as a concerned citizen not recieving a reply.

Back when I was mayor I was sure tavern taxes did not go to the town treasury, unless thats changed lately, but I'm not sure if it goes to the county either, I thought it was like beer, the money just disappears, it does seem fair though that if the money from tavern tax goes to county, it be spread back to the towns.

Mike wonders what he'll be accused of this time for speaking...

And Lethion: I do not "see evil everywhere", don't take it to extremes, but the refusal to admit that something or someone could be wrong is in no way a good trait either, my last post was not about seeing evil everywhere, it was about people who refuse to see evil at all. And yes I'm using the term *evil* very loosely right now, I'm not talking about child murdering evil, or satan worshipping evil, I'm talking about the *mini* evils, being rude, lying, manipulating people to your own ends, colluding facts, that sort of thing, but refusing to see those *evils* is not much different then refusing to see other *evils*, and thats the basis of my last post.

Smiles politely while writing a response.

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Sir Mike. Your post again avoids what I asked for of our council members. I will ask a third time slightly more directly. Perhaps the answer will arise this way.

What are some ideas you have on this issue. As far as what town, and county can to to aliviate the worst of the effects on all in the county.

So far Lady Marsh has stated town taxes.
Lord Justian has suggested no taxes to have the county aid the towns.

Please sir I implore you to not discuss terms used, nor talk of this person or the next. Instead tell me of your ideas on this issue. What would you suggest be done?

Looks to all others in the area. Looking to Lady Chardonnay...

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Chardonnay I thank you for your informative post. I have learned a lot just from your answers. This I do greatly appriciate. To all others. Please what ideas do you each have. I care not who is playing which group. Who uses what term. Only the individual thoughts on how to continue this county as a powerful with in the nation.
Taxing taverns was a seperate idea. Although proven to fail with great consequence it was an idea.

I still have not heard thoughts on taxing traveling merchants from other counties. As if this county manages to save our markets with continued affordable good. An it is one of the most affordable in the nation. As one who travels the country I have seen. Our individual town militias could be used to inforce and capture those avoiding payment. This is the idea that would take unity like we currently do not have.

As for myself taxes on foreign merchants is an idea I could support. I just do not see any practical way of levying or collecting such a tax.

As to the new rules imposed by Levan I believe there will have to be modifications by the admins. I know one major flaw that is being discussed on a national level is that under the current rules towns lose 26 state points a day they can hire civil servants to replace points lost but the maximum that will bring is 20. That means there is still a net loss of 6 state points per day.

As to the other changes what would I do? It would depend on what position I held ie mayor, trade minister, etc, and what precise impact the rules were causing. Until the rules are fully tested and implentented. And untill I see the specific impact they have on Somerset and on Chard, My only answer is I do not know what I would do.

I guess I'll try the direct response:

MikeBlack wrote:

I calculated for Chard how much tax would be needed to offset the 50 pound per day new fee being added. It's 3.75 pounds per month per field or workshop, so 3.75 per level 1 and 11.25 for level 2/3 with 2 fields per month. That is not a huge tax, in fact its pretty insignificant.

MikeBlack wrote:

As Chardonnay pointed out, the biggest problem with the tax system is the problem with people on retreat, even a 3.75 pound monthly tax would eventually pile up if one is on retreat for 3 months. (well, maybe, I guess I don't know what the interest rate is... does anyone?...)

MikeBlack wrote:

If there is an oversupply of a food, use this to eat it up, and
recommend more food is produced then currently across the board, giving
more opportunities for level 2 work for instance. And perhaps be a bit
more careful on out of county food export (everyones gonna want cheap
food now).

Also I want to point out that the new rules also add
a 50P/day town treasury loss, which may be significant for some towns,
thats also 1500 pounds from each town treasury gone per month, which
may deplete the treasuries fast as well, it may become important for the county to offset that loss in the future. Or perhaps town's may need to finally use their tax option to get by (which is an option of course).

Anyway, yes I think this rule will cause trouble, but I think Somerset is more prepared to deal with it then many other counties in England, since we have a strong economy,
and the county is obviously making money over time at the moment
(opposed to others that are still in debt or unable to boost their
treasury)

Definitely recommend some sort of laws/rules on exporting food, and encouraging 2nd fields for food more food production.

I
think the rules pretty much say that a bunch of food is needed for the
councilors, but is just lost, so although the county needs the extra
food, none of us actually gets it, it just disappears.

Answering your question:

MikeBlack wrote:

Back when I was mayor I was sure tavern
taxes did not go to the town treasury, unless thats changed lately, but
I'm not sure if it goes to the county either, I thought it was like
beer, the money just disappears, it does seem fair though that if the
money from tavern tax goes to county, it be spread back to the towns.

Exactly how are you missing what I've brought to discussion? There is no *county* discussion that I know of, no *group decision* to give, I haven't heard any decisions on how to adress the public, nor am I the one who should be making those sorts of decisions all on my own and providing the counties opinion myself.

What more do you want?... The extra fee costs 50 pounds/day for each town, thats about 1500 pounds per month, either the mayor makes that up in trades, re-sales, or the county decides to give 1500/month to towns, or the mayors do the 3.75 or so pound per month tax per field/workshop. Regarding state points, I don't know, we'll have to see what happens when they finally implement them, it will cost more and likely make demand for level 3 state way higher. But all this has already been said, perhaps you forgot to read my posts after you saw me disagree with Justin.

Mike

Shooting a hand to her chest a bit thrown back she begins laughing whole heartedly. Taking a moment to regain her control she straighten up again.

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Brighda thank you for your response on this. I will point out that practicality isn't always what is best for the group as a whole. I see it as taking some law changes, unity and hard work of at least one or two people from each town to report merchants who are trading. While followed up with both courts and military assistance. As surely many would challenge any laws we set forth to assist our county. We would need different methods of enforcing. After long enough merchants of all types would follow this. As well agree to pay. Could always have our army attack and kill them as they try to escape no?

Laughs even more before turning to Mike. A grin unvisable do to her mask crosses her mouth.

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Even though a bit harsher than I would expect from a fellow chardian to one of his own. It is a little more close to what I was hoping for out of you. I do thank you for your post. Please though do not think me your enemy. Nor one to harrass you. After all this is how we get to know each other and our limits. You have some good thoughts in your ideas I will agree. Alas I do feel some more work on this needs done. For instance is there a way for a town council to wave taxes to one returning from a retreat? So as things are not so overwhelming? Possibly a pay back program can be created for such individuals is no option for waving taxes is available?

MikeBlack wrote:

What more do you want?...

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Exactly as you have just done. Thank you.

MikeBlack wrote:

But all this has already been said, perhaps you forgot to read my posts after you saw me disagree with Justin.

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Sir this is why I continued to push. One thing of the people. Any people who listen to a response. When one so vocally argues or at least appears to. The points ARE missed. Your well worked answer was missed. Not that it was forgotten. Once I say you start with such agression. Honestly I couldn't bare to continue. As you can see I can throw the same reaction back. Perhaps you didn't read my word.

whispers wrote:

Looks around astonished at these vile words cursing her ears.

Needless to say it does niether of us good to continue this. I will simply say. Thank you for reposting. The information in much more a clear way. Ya know purpose first. Then deragatory responses in the end. I look forward to continuing to hear your responses.

Tips her hat and bows her head to the firey man. Sitting in a chair she relaxes fully pleased with this turn.

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Doth anyone else have any ideas? As yes the laws may not have passed, but Idea gathering ahead of time. Fully benefits all to be prepared when it comes. Have a resource pool built, and ideas at the county and towns disposal.

With all due respect the only problem I might see with that is what exactly do you mean by creative government? A major point of politics is that government cannot on its own create wealth, that is what private individuals do, government only redistributes pre-exsisting wealth. Where will that come from?

Smiling under her mask with a chuckle to the words spoken.

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Lethion I do agree none like taxes. I lived in CW many a year ago. When the mayor of this town issued a tax to all citizens. It failed miserably. Before a month was passed they lifted it. I would tend to agree with you that no town should light heartedly issue a tax. So many other ways are there to raise money for towns and county. If one does not take the lazy nor easy way out.

Turning to the new man to enter the room. She listened fully to his words. Stopping long enough to scratch her hip threw the fabric.

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Interesting sir. I believe you took Lethions words ajar. As creative government only intels ways to raise funds to protect all citizens of this county from financial failure. No one person nor town can protect an entire county. Let alone the country. Just because a tax option is available. Does not mean it is the best. Now I not saying its not a very usuable option. What I am saying is how do the leaders here plan to raise funds. In what creative ways can we get out citizens to assist? Please lets refrain from further talk of what is government and what is not. This is a pained topic of this county. Instead lets continue with what I started this thread for. Ideas that can be suggested. No matter how objectionable. With discussion of said thoughts. Rather than bicker sir. What ideas do you have to bring to this issue?

Steps back finding a chair where she sits tucking in her cover so no part of her could be shown. Placing her hands crossed on her lap she waits.