discussion- repeal the anti-defamation law

I'm happy to see that we have started moving towards a better worded law.

I think if the harrassment is serious enough and extends to the point where it is repeated even after several successful prosecutions, the case should perhaps be handed over to the game admin, as loss of stat points through a death sentence probably won't fix it.

The Cornwall law doesn't cover some issues that we could see come up, given Somerset's passionate politicking. I could, for instance, say that The New Year's Eve Party was a bunch of drunks who planned to take the county's resources and spend them all on drinking. While defamatory, I don't think this statement would be covered under the Cornish law.

I suppose this could be covered by adding "or group" to this:

Quote :

I. Definition of Harassment
a. The act of causing distress to another person through words or actions after being warned that one’s words or actions have caused distress.

But I'm a little unhappy with this wording:

Quote :

Chapter 10 - Harassment
Any person or persons who conspire(s) to intimidate, frighten or anger another without provocation or with maliciousness of intent shall be guilty of harassment.

Both the phrasing "without provocation" and "maliciousness of intent" are a bit worrisome to me. Many of our worst fights in Somerset could easily be construed as provocation, and who can truly judge intent?

I"m not trying to nit-pick, really, but I'd be more comfortable I think with a mixture of the Cornish law and what we have in place. Could anyone with more legal experience than I have look at it from that angle? I shall continue to think on it, but it'll take me a day or two before i have a lot of time.

I strongly support total repeal of the defamation law. I understand and appreciate Chardonnay efforts to improve this law's wording. But I do not share her confidence in this respect.

Defamation laws should only be applied in truly egregious cases that reflect a community consensus. Time and time again, prosecutions have been undertaken that do not reflect a consensus, but rather an effort to criminalize political differences. In genuinely egregious cases, the new forum rules provide a much more effective administrative (and apolitical) solution to the problem.

Regardless of whether this law is repealed or not, I will resolutely oppose any defamation prosecution, whether by SNP or LoF, for any cause less severe than would get that person banned from the game anyway. I will ESPECIALLY oppose any prosecution brought by anyone in my "defense" against any alleged "defamation" of me. I won't roll over for criticism, I will defend myself to the utmost. But I am NOT the legal arbiter of what is true or false about me. The inability of some people to understand this basic principle of justice is deeply disturbing to me and is the prime factor that motivated me to run for office.

This law has been repeatedly abused and belongs in the dustbin of history.

If so, Councilor Garraway, then why does EVERY country IRL, or duchy IG have some form of defamation law on the books? I suggested changes; nobody has followed up on it, and frankly, this dicussion was ignored cuz everyone had had their say, and it was dead for 3 weeks until you deigned to grace our forums with your presence.

Chardonnay wrote:

If so, Councilor Garraway, then why does EVERY country IRL, or duchy IG have some form of defamation law on the books? I suggested changes; nobody has followed up on it, and frankly, this dicussion was ignored cuz everyone had had their say, and it was dead for 3 weeks until you deigned to grace our forums with your presence.

I agree, that your comprimise should recieve some more attention. If there is a poll to replace the old law with this new one, I will vote yes!

1. As Counselor Chardonnay rightly points out every county in the Kingdom has some form of law to this effect on their books

2. Even though the censor council is about to introduce a revised set of forum posting laws once final approval of the draft is obtained it does not cover some of the unique issues that Somerset faces and leaves room for abuse of fellow citizens also those laws from RK do not extend to this forum in full and Somersettians should be afforded protection in all aspects of thier posting experience.

We should abandon this forum and migrate back to the RK forum except for games.

Look, it's very fair that other people disagree with me and that I may be outvoted. That's fine, I accept that outcome. But every councillor should state their opinion and I have done so. No attempt to inflame passions, just a honest statement of my beliefs.

Every other county has these laws but none of them have made such a hash of it as we have. No other county has had the trouble we have had in implementing them fairly or reasonably.

The most important statement in my post is that I never, under any circumstances, intend to charge anyone with defamation against me, nor will I ever support anyone who does so on my behalf.

I move that we vote on replacing the law in question with the law quoted by councilor Chardonnay. The two days have long since passed and many councilors have expressed an opinion on this so it appears to have been taken as a real motion initially.

Greg, your motion is fatally flawed, for I was not the one to quote the Cornwall law, but rather, i asked if anyone could perhaps undertake a reconciliation of our present law with that one. Nobody has, events overtook us all, and it's not gone any farther.

I do have a 3 day weekend; perhaps i can get something done on it.

Shhhhhh, they might not notice .

Sorry I am not at hme, and it had been such a long time I must have misremembered the discussion. Fine I was just hoping to get things moving to an end as opposed tgo circling endlessly.

Gregarious wrote:

I move that we vote on replacing the law in question with the law quoted by councilor Chardonnay. The two days have long since passed and many councilors have expressed an opinion on this so it appears to have been taken as a real motion initially.

Second

I've just spent an hour looking at the Somerset defamation law side by side with the Cornwall harassment law. The actions being defined are very different! Too, the Cornish penalties are much harsher than the Somerset ones, and violate the maximum sentences set by LJS.

I couldn't find a good reconciliation of the definitions. I have therefore, in this draft, included both defamation (in a less confusing manner than does the current law) and harrassment. I made significant changes to the Cornwall model of punishment as well, moderating it greatly.

Quote :

Draft of new defamation/harassment law

Art. 2.2.1. : Defamation and Harassment

I. Definitions
i. An act of defamation is defined as the communication of a statement that makes a false claim, expressly stated or implied to be factual, that causes harm to the reputation of an individual or group.
ii. An act of harassment shall be defined as causing distress to another person through words or actions after being warned that one’s words or actions have caused distress. This can include the use of foul language, comments that are considered insulting or provocative within one’s immediate surroundings, threatening or malicious comments directed at one or more persons, or any action designed to create an environment of hostility or repression.

II. Forms of Communication to be encompassed
i. All forms of communication within the county's jurisdiction shall be covered by this law including but not limited to speech in a public forum (this includes taverns and and scroller) and speech in a private forum (including mail and instant messaging by the nobility). This includes communication sent from another County to a person or persons currently within the County limits of Somerset and communication sent to a person in another County by a person or persons within the County limits of Somerset.
ii. Any attempt to subvert this law using unlisted forms of communication for the purposes of harassment shall be considered to be covered in the previous article (II.i.).


III. Penalties
The actions defined herein are light crimes, and the sentence shall be a public apology with a fine of 1 pound to 200 pounds, depending on the consequences to the victim. In case such action is directed towards a noble, civil servant or military officer, or is a repeat offense, the sentence shall be jail time up to 3 days along with the aformentioned fine. Third offenses shall be treated as serious crimes.

I applaud this combination-rewrite and the end result Counselor Chardonnay.

Nicely done!

Chardonnay wrote:

I've just spent an hour looking at the Somerset defamation law side by side with the Cornwall harassment law. The actions being defined are very different! Too, the Cornish penalties are much harsher than the Somerset ones, and violate the maximum sentences set by LJS.

I couldn't find a good reconciliation of the definitions. I have therefore, in this draft, included both defamation (in a less confusing manner than does the current law) and harrassment. I made significant changes to the Cornwall model of punishment as well, moderating it greatly.

Quote :

Draft of new defamation/harassment law

Art. 2.2.1. : Defamation and Harassment

I. Definitions
i. An act of defamation is defined as the communication of a statement that makes a false claim, expressly stated or implied to be factual, that causes harm to the reputation of an individual or group.
ii. An act of harassment shall be defined as causing distress to another person through words or actions after being warned that one’s words or actions have caused distress. This can include the use of foul language, comments that are considered insulting or provocative within one’s immediate surroundings, threatening or malicious comments directed at one or more persons, or any action designed to create an environment of hostility or repression.

II. Forms of Communication to be encompassed
i. All forms of communication within the county's jurisdiction shall be covered by this law including but not limited to speech in a public forum (this includes taverns and and scroller) and speech in a private forum (including mail and instant messaging by the nobility). This includes communication sent from another County to a person or persons currently within the County limits of Somerset and communication sent to a person in another County by a person or persons within the County limits of Somerset.
ii. Any attempt to subvert this law using unlisted forms of communication for the purposes of harassment shall be considered to be covered in the previous article (II.i.).


III. Penalties
The actions defined herein are light crimes, and the sentence shall be a public apology with a fine of 1 pound to 200 pounds, depending on the consequences to the victim. In case such action is directed towards a noble, civil servant or military officer, or is a repeat offense, the sentence shall be jail time up to 3 days along with the aformentioned fine. Third offenses shall be treated as serious crimes.

I will vote for the change if the poll is posted

OK I assume this has to be an in game vote? How do we conduct one of those so that if we pass this motion it can take effect? Sorry I'm new .

First, we must do a vote in our Council forums. Then we must replace one of the law books in it's entirety ingame - that book being the one containing the new anti-defamation law.

I would counsel that we vote on this proposal, get it and any other major changes done, and then do a single ingame vote on a revised legal corpus that incorporates the grammtical changes Rebo made, the suggested changes that I made per the LJS comments and anything else that's lying around and needs to be in the Corpus. Or out of it, I hope y'all understood my meaning!

crystal clear.

We didn't all agree in a vote yet that the defamation law combined with the harrassment law is desirable. I would vote against the defamation law and harassment law as rewritten by Chardonnay, especially with the 2.2.1 II definition which includes vague mention of taverns (chart and notices?). private messages, discrimination against non Somersettians, and discriminatory bias in favour of nobles and other select groups.

Vàna Rúndóttir wrote:

We didn't all agree in a vote yet that the defamation law combined with the harrassment law is desirable. I would vote against the defamation law and harassment law as rewritten by Chardonnay, especially with the 2.2.1 II definition which includes vague mention of taverns (chart and notices?). private messages, discrimination against non Somersettians, and discriminatory bias in favour of nobles and other select groups.

There is a specific mention of taverns, and of private messages.

There is no discrimination against ppl from outside of Somerset; the wording merely treats messages from outside the same as messages from inside.

This is 1455. Yeah, nobles, army and civil servants get a little more protection. Those groups are the most exposed to this sort of damage anyway. Ingame, they're usually the most active players.

Anyway, i'll post the vote, this discussion is long over