Suggestion to the council

Well, my retirement of politic make me having more time to talk with people in tavern, i talk with a lot of new player and discover something bad.

They don'T know about the paying vote for the site.

I see many in this council starting to make wheat grower, miller and baker to try to reduce the price of bread for about 0.1 to 0.5 pences. Well don't need that just be sure every mentor of each town add in the letter how to vote and get an extra pound each day. I am sure new player will prefer get an extra pound a day then paying less 0.5 pound on bread. don't you think.

Also i suggest that will be add in TH message.

Just think about it, a new player working on mine get a wage of 17p with that is like having a wage of 18p that help a lot.

And this money is created, not taking from somewhere else, that me get add into the county economy and town economy.

If 50 player by town vote each day that adding 250 pounds a day into somerset economy that something that should not be ignore.

So the county council need to tell the mentor and mayor to add this information for new player.

Interesting idea.

i will continue to vote and ask others too. I will see if i can ask the mentor to put it in the message and not all of them know about the lottery either

Ellsbeth wrote:

Given the lack of participation and the failure to show up for votes in private council of about half of the elected council I make a motion that all further votes on any issue not directly related to Security matters be held in this public council room so that all citizens can see which of their elected body are actively participating and attempting to keep the promises made during the campaigns and attending their jobs as dictated to serve the people of the county.

As a resident of Chard & Somerset County I agree. This is how it is done IRL at least in the USA, you can get on the net and find out how or if the members of the Legislature have voted. I think this is a great idea Ellsbeth.

Unfortunately this would require a change in the Somerset legal corpus.

Well we cannot effect a change in the Legal corpus without a majority showing up and voting on it and so far we have failed to see that happen on anything.

We can however Post the results of votes after the traditional voting time has expired so the people CAN see who is showing up and who is not fulfilling their responsibilities as promised by asking for votes , there is nothing in the legal corpus to prevent this disclosure

Thank you Aeryn, I am sure the citizenry are wondering after all the promises of change why nothing has happened this term except more talk on the same issues and no action. I am all for letting the citizenry know which people have actually shown up in council for voting and discussion.

That is true.

This was usually done before but stopped last term.

Based on my usual spirit of complete and utter nosiness, I would enjoy seeing these results posted. Although the issues are important, personally I'm far more concerned with a 50% attendance figure - especially since Garraway said something about an 8/12 super majority being required to do something or other ... 6/12 could leave things slightly stagnant (within whichever realm this supermajority RP 'victory' resided).

If there are going to be problems divulging the issues voted on, I would be very happy to see something anonymous like
Bill ###: Passed with a vote of 5 / 6
Members absent for this vote: member a, member b ... member f

I would be even more excited to see a weekly summary list than a vote by vote listing - a bit easier to digest this way. I'd love something like:
number of issues sent to vote:
% of eligible votes submitted by party:
# of unexplained absences by member:
To ensure that this tool was as useful as possible, including a total column would be awesome.

Oh, and Allikath, please take this not to be a criticism, but as a comment. I can't be bothered to criticize much these days so please take this comment in the best possible light. It seems a wee bit inconsistant to advociate free speech and equality when something as small as one person's vote on an issue needs to be censored for their personal protection. Parity can only be achieved through willingness to share knowledge of all kinds. I recognize that certain security issues will be faced, but for the most part, someone's vote on a given issue shouldn't jeopardize the security of the county.
If someone who is not part of the council is still so engaged with political issues that they are attacking you due to your personal stance
1) That person should get a life - these discussions are of questionable value during an election, but such hostilities are a waste of time during a time when nothing can change
2) There are other methods of dealing with these miscreants who would attack you for voting in favour of proposition A - if their commentary becomes unacceptable, use the game mechanisms to deal with them
3) If someone is actually going to attack a council member based on a specific vote, they will probably find other reasons to attack you - at least this way you can focus their energies

This being said, I've never been on a council, never will be on a council, and have never experienced the kind of backlashes and personal attacks that both you and the ex-duke face.

No need to change legal corpus for it do I remind that many vote took place in public council room in the past including last change of the legal corpus.

The vote that was keep in private council room is security related and treaty, and one person feeling can be hurt (the person that get vote).

But in fact by the legal corpus only the diplomatic, trade, and military vote are bound to be in private council room.

So saying you need to change legal corpus is false.

Execpt if you are crazy enough to vote the number of marshals or a treaty in public ...

The Duchess has the list of counsellors who have not voted or have bearly showed up in Private council and has provided those of us concerned with the apathy and absence displayed by these people the reasons given for absences which range from work to vacations to family illness.

RL causes that are unexpected I can certainly empathize with and have patience with but when the cause for absence and lack of participation is due to RL reasons you can forsee such as planned vacations or increasing work schedules due to a profession that is insanely busy at certain times of the year such as a CPA in Tax season then I personally find it irresponsible to accept a council seat knowing you cannot attend it.

The least one can do is recuse themselves and let the seat go to a fellow party member who CAN and WILL speak for your party and for the citizens you promised to represent.

When we cannot reach 7 consistently for a majority or even for a total vote then there IS a problem.

it is not lack of working together or stonewalling it is simple absence and apathy.

Nothing any citizen was painted pretty pictures of will ever happen if your councillors cannot be bothered to show up.

We could not consistantly reach 7 votes all of last council but you didn't bring it up then.

The Duchy Archives in fact prove that is not the case

only 2 times did we Not reach at Least 7 votes last council session as the record of votes is there for the perusal of all

Vote on clerk of county loan
7 votes

VOTE C.Marshals wages @ 19.00
7 votes

VOTE: Rancher Aid Loans Appropriation
6 votes

VOTE: level up loans appropriation
7 votes

VOTE: Second Field Loans Appropriation
6 votes

VOTE raising of the mines wage
8 votes

Vote on church concordat
7 votes

Vote article 3.5.2.
9 votes

Vote for the lord protector (duke supliant)
9 votes

Sorry, we "barely" reached 7 votes and we will and are this term too.

We have this term too. The only ones who are complaining are you and Chardy.

last term i complain about it, since has mostly LOF, CUE and one patron that was always inactif ...

I put the vote in public about the change of laws and mostly other vote ...

But at begin term we never experiance lack of vote is at the end eahc time. So that is really not a good sign.

but well not my trouble, I prefer taking care of my tavern and let the politician do their job.

Big ale glass here I come

Ok, you can't change the past - and yes this issue probably should have been raised previously, but it wasn't. Still, there is something critical in the spirit of this discussion. If you feel that this is a political issue, review the vote counts and absentees from the prior council and raise this issue to ensure that this is not a politically motivated concern.

Somerset will only thrive if there is a group of 12 committed councilors willing to oversee both their personal spheres, and also those issues that are important to the county. If someone has time to post a job on the forums, make a purchase in the market, or visit the tavern in RK, he/she has time to deal with the council's daily administrivia. I can read through all of the activity in the RK Somerset forum within 15 minutes, I would be astounded if it takes much more time to read through the issues raised in council, consider your positions and those of others who have spoken before you, and vote. I check the boards fairly regularly, and unless there are a whole flurry of posts within a relatively short period of time, there doesn't seem to be too much going on in the council chambers based on new posts. Definitely not so much that someone can't keep abreast of the goings on. I'm not trying to imply that you're lazy or not being attentive, and I recognize that I'm in no way aware of what goes on in the chamber, but the discussions don't seem to be terribly time consuming.

Perhaps the following should be considered:
Each councilor within a term has 7 days worth of proxies. These proxies must be assigned to people within their own party by noting such in the private council chambers and the reason is not important (busy work week, vacation, tired of voting ... whatever). If the person misses 1 vote without a proxy ... it happens. If the person misses two votes in a row, they either face a significant fine or they are removed from the council (not sure if someone can be removed or if they must do so themselves, sorry). If the person misses 3 votes within a month or 4 votes within a term without a proxy, see above. If the absences are due to unforseen emergencies (loss of internet, sickness ... fill in the list as required), they are not counted against the member and any decision reached based on their absences will be reversed.

Personally, I don't understand why someone would run for office if they can't commit enough time to vote on issues. I recognize that my time is tight due to school concerns between September and April, therefore I will never run for mayor, council, or mentor (once my game knowledge is adequate) as I can't guarantee my availability within these 8 months. If someone can't find a couple of hours per week to deal with council business, it would be nice if they would forego the prestige of attaching councilor to their list of accomplishments, and leave the positions for people who are willing to live up to their responsibilities.

Catalus just don'T forget sometime irl change temporary, I takes example of Krelian that last term learn at last minute he got job of 5 week in summer camp, when he run and get elected he don't know that.

But when is in the begining of the term and not the end then he will have resign last term, to not block a position but at least pass every friday and saturday and try to vote on matter.

I see it this way Catallus

IF I am faced with a Real Life issue that I know is going to prevent me from logging in and I place my character into retreat to protect his best interest then I DARN well better do the same for my council seat. My self interest is not more important than my civil duty to my fellow citizens so I need to give my seat up to the next in line in my party who can and will show up to do the job I cannot. I OWE it to my myself to do this, I owe it to my party to do this and most importantly I owe it to all of the citizens who voted for me and whose interests I hold the power to act upon.

it is selfish of me of to retain a seat just to say I AM A COUNSELOR when I am not actively representing the citizens of this county in any and every matter that comes up in counsel and at the national level in Parliament by weighing in MY COUNTY'S concerns on all national votes that come across the board there.

How can anyone wax on about working together or mending fences or making nice or anything else when half of the people who are supposed to be making these grand gestures are not here to make them.

It is very easy to go on and on during elections and make promises but that is not what being a council member is about.

it is about coming here EVERY day or 2 days at best and reading...and contributing...and debating and working on reaching compromises that serve every citizens interest. It is not all glamour and glory by any means and its not pillow fights in the council room to goof off. It is roll up your sleeves and do the math...do the diplomacy ...do the legwork...familiarize yourselves with what affects the people you represent and look for better ways to make their life better work.

This is the part of the game that has to be taken seriously and played actively and with dedication because this part of the game affects those around you and not just your own scope of existence in the game.

It does not matter really if you show up in a RP for 4 days and then come back and with barrels of ale to dunk the taven wench in but here it matters if you come around. people DEPEND on you to come around. It stalls the entire process when you DONT show up.

So if a counselor truly wants to show dedication to the job, and to the citizens either show up and be counted for or pass the seat to someone who will.

On public voting, the Somerset Legal Corpus has this to say (quoted from Book III, Article 4):

Quote :

Art. 3.4.2. : All information given in the private council room forum is private. The only persons that can get information out is the Spokesperson, or any other council member that receives authorization to do so by the Duke. Any councillor [sic] that violates this article will be charged with high treason against Somerset duchy and can be sentenced to death or exile.
Discussion and voting related to the following subjects can only be held in the private council room :
i) All types of treaties
ii) Army, constabulary force, security proposals
iii) Trade
iv) Any proposal that the councilor who proposes it requests to be dicussed [sic] and voted on in the private council room

It's clear that anything else may be discussed and voted upon in public, gainsaying Her Grace:

Allikath wrote:

Unfortunately this would require a change in the Somerset legal corpus.

Anything not related to the topics specified may be discussed and voted upon in public.

i'm not sure whether this isssue has reached the point of absurdity, has been flogged to death, or whether it's just regular politics Somerset style. The inability to get quorum on a regular basis is not a partisan issue, it's a failure of the political parties to police their own members and worse, a failure of the council to police it's own members. Overall, this seems like either a failure in the member selection process, or a dose of laziness on the part of too great a percentage of the council members for whatever reason. Any number less than 10 votes on any issue is a failure of the council. The only thing that will impress me less is if the 2 absent members from each party includes all 3 parties and one party's representation has completely abdicated their responsibility.

Points:
There is a 12 person list, I don't understand why this can't be employed to cover vacation time. Employ alternates, assign support positions (vice-<position>) and ensure that the council has no excuse for less than at least 5/6 particiption at all times.
Council votes are an excellent training ground for new members. Each party spoke out on the benefit so fhis during the debates. Let the active members see this and view the process as part of their training.
Everything is a partisan issue if you choose to believe it. But without a party whip and genuine interest in ensuring full participation in all responsibilities of council positions (including regular activity), it's tough to say that anything is partisan without united opposition along party lines.
If people can't be bothered to: join the SAS, take the hints from others that these boards exist, click on the "unofficial duchy forum" link, follow the posted advice in the other forums that these forums exist, or listen to the verbal advice that these forums exist ... ignore them. Stop trying to worry about the people who are too lazy after all the hints to explore these forums ... they're not active enough to care about. And if you miss 1 or 2 who will be very active, they'll do as I did ... sniffle briefly that they were left out, and delve into the information available as soon as they finish wiping their eyes.

You can do nothing about this council. It's not going to change from what I've seen so take this opportunity to plan for the future. Even though there are some adamantly supportive voices, some with luke-warm or better consent, and some that seem to raise every possible techicality, legal concern, partisan spectre ... available to them, there is a wonderful irony - your'e voting on something that deals with the council's inability to vote regularly ... nothing will change. So for the future, ensure that everyone on your lists is aware that this minimum level activity (voting) is not only appreciated, but required or else they forego their position ... unless they make arrangements or their absence is excused.

It would be nice if voices could be heard regarding issues ... but most of us really don't give a damn about the actual votes. I trust the council to deal with issues appropriately, so whether someone gets paid 19 pounds, 18 pounds, or 3 bananas doesn't mean a bloody thing to me - you're acting in my best interests whether I agree with the decision or not. What I do care about is that the people who actually get elected do their job, and if they don't, the party and council finds someone who will.

Once someone has been elected, there is NO mechanism for ensuring their participation, nor is there any way to force them to resign their seat in favor of someone who might be more active. When making lists, those running them usually do attempt to fill the top spots with players who will be active. But this is my third term in Council, and I've gotten to be happy if we get a quorum vote on the issues.

Interesting idea Catallus but I will point out the following issues we would face with it so we can perhaps find a way to tweak it a little to accomodate.

There is just no way to totally make use of Proxies except in the forum council as in game votes MUST be made by the actual elected counselors of record. The game will not allow any other avenue. So either the counselors show up for in game votes or no one can speak for them.

NOW,

Proxies could possibly solve the smaller issues that are voted on in the counsel room here but as there is a 2 discussion and then a 2 day vote it is possible as we have seen to date that many counselors are gone far longer than the 2 day discussions so that would mean a constant revolving door for the alternate in their parties to come in and out to listen to the discussion and place the vote as they would hold no permanent right to be in counsel.

That system would be tedious HOWEVER it could maybe work here in Bristol but if the council moves ( which is still being discussed and debated) then that system would not be feasible as the Admin in RK are not going to want to deal with the constant user group changes that would occur based on the frequency and duration of the absences we have seen so far.


The most logical solution is to give up your seat if you find you cannot be there actively and participate but in lieu of that this solutuion could have some potential to at least make sure 12 people are in attendance at all times which would be a vast improvement on the current situation

Oh lord you people kill me. Smart as you are, you still see only problems and no solutions, even though some propose great starts to solutions. If you were my soldiers in real life, we'd all be dead and handing over our country to the opposition. Ell, cause I have short memory and pitiful computer skills, thanks for playing devils advocate to Catullus, the man is brilliant in working an issue. The key is to continue to massage the idea till something works.

Try this: ok, no proxies in game. Well, ever heard of cut and paste--even I can do that. Follow laws here, use the proxies, discuss, debate, bicker, whatever you prefer on the issue for 2-days, and vote here for 2-days. With proxy or actual councillor. Then, migrate the whole thing to the RK forums according to time available by actual councillors. Since the elected officials can't get off their duff to do their job; do double work. Eventually the extra work will put pressure on the loafers to get busy and you go back to the system at hand, and people will show up to work.

You say game won't allow proxies, ok. But why do I see a change in council positions? Something is able to be changed. If someone has an unseen abscence that will efeect them doing their jobs, well there are 2 council positions that apparently have no purpose other than to fill-in.

Oh and for the record, I do not see Partisan politics, I see childish bickering of immature councilors. Take note: that will effect my vote on those people and the parties they represent, since all I hear is unfounded Partisan politics in lieu of progress. Play Monet for a brief moment and recognize the final result, rather than dwell on those sharp, contrasting brush strokes you see up close.

Duchess, with all due respect, your position is meant for leadership. I am not seeing that. All I see is finger pointing. Please stick to the task at hand, progress for Somerset and leave the bickering to 3rd graders. Your behaviour is affecting you and your entire party and the affiliated fledgling party that promoted you to this position. You have an incredible resource at your disposal, an opposition party with leaders willing to over look this insane climate, and still work like crazy to better the county which you enjoy having a pixelated sticker on a screen to show you rule. Yay you. What about Somerset. I know I made a mistake, voting for the Reconciliation party whose intentions were noble, and whose leadership gained power by the work of the lowly members of that party. Followed by, in my opinion, a show of complete lack of participation--other than promoting you to Duchess. Ironic that I claim no party affiliation and detest politics; however it is clear as night. Your claims of Partisan politic is true so long as you make those accusations. You become the source of what you think you are trying to avoid. My JAH what a complicated non-sensical world you people are a part of. Personally I'm surprised the entire council is still playing this game.

Think WIIFM councilors when you think the other councillor is trying to undermine you. What I mean by that is "What's In It For Me" (WIIFM). Ask yourself, to what end does this councilor profit by their actions, WIIF him or her.Why am i telling a bunch of people alledgely over the age of 13 people, according to rules, how to act mature. Politics must come with a mandatory lobotomy, cause what I'm seeing is not making any sense.

MOVE FORWARD

The Duchess can change council postions in game but she cannot change LAWS. The council members MUST be present and place votes ingame for ANY change to the actual legal corpus and NOONE can vote a proxy INGAME.

The GAME does not allow that. It would be like trying to purchase and or feed another another player from your own. It is not possible.

and any counselors who do not vote in an official INGAME vote the GAME automatically assigns an ABSTAIN vote to and so you become left without a majority and the GAME MECHANICS will not pass a vote without a majority.

Pointing out a problem that cannot be solved because it is out of our hands is not maysaying it is showing that while the idea is admirable it has a flaw that must be dealt with to follow legal procedure or the whole vote will be null and void by the laws and the council cannot be made to uphold it.

It is pointless to make paper changes that cannot hold up at in an Appeal at the COA.

It is a waste of everyones time.

We have our hands tied in game and the only person who can change game mechanics is LJS so you are certainly welcome to petition hin for the change.

Milady Ellsbeth,

I've been encouraged by your consistent attempts to have issues move forward. Thank you, that is what people expect when they vote in representatives. If only the PARTISANsayers could emulate your model in leadership. we might actually make some progress.

I had a feeling in-game mechanics would cause issues. How long are these GHOST council members absent? What I see as the problem is the clock starts ticking once a proposal hits the floor RK forum wise. Then vote comes around and nothing passes. Is this more or less what happens? That being the case, my proposal was to have the discussion on these forums where no rules limiting who votes, proxy or actual. Thus you can do the leagl deal here following guidelines, building in stand-in councillors or proxy voting. Let the issue go to vote here, all within legal time lines. Then establis a set time when all the councillors could vote in-game. Backwards plan from that point to get the time you intiate the original discussion, for 2 days. Cut and paste in the actuall dialogue that went on in here for 2 days. Then vote at the prescribed time. Item passes or fails, alll members accounted for mission accomplished.

It is said that a distinguished Soviet General of a tank unit proudly boasted that he could defeat the American Army according to Doctrine. He quickly added; that is, if they always stuck to doctrine. Think outside the box people. You can still follow the rules, but put in mechanisms to ensure success, all within legal limits. Can't you?

Again "Problems do not exist, only solutions not yet discovered." How do you think we got the internet? Not by following the course of actions I am typically seeing here. And this is only one of a million suggestions that exist. Thanks again milady, seems you've earned your pixelated Kudos. I would like to see some real leadership in the elected council as well from the leader your council's majority somehow managed to elect. Ironically, there should be no council because it would take a majority to elect the Count. This council should by nature be undecided for the entire 60-days until the next election. How funny would that be.

I can report M'lord that that was the ONE vote that was attended by all and it was an ingame vote.

The leader of council vote did get every single council members vote and as it is a matter of publc record in game at the conclusion the law does not prevent me from sharing the conclusion of that vote which was 7 to 5 with all of LOF and the 2 Recon party members voting for the current Duchess.

unfortunately no vote since then has seen such a turnout.

I am certainly in favor of your idea as it would greatly enhance the council's ability to move forward.

Technically the only real votes that HAVE to be voted on in game if memroy serves ( besides council leadership) are the actual changes to the Legal corpus itself and anything else can occur in chambers here. so unless an actual law is being repealed or amended the rest of the work of council can be done from council chambers.

As far as absences we have had one counselor who has been in in game retreat since august 5 ( and is according to a fellow counselor on vacation ) but has not voted on anything since the Duchess election and who has a total of 4 posts in Bristol castle with the last being on July 30 so their participation has been solely limited to the Duchess election.

We have one who has been doing their actual appointed council Job but has been in council sporadically due to RL work commitments being gone for stretches at a time.

We have one who appears to be interested only in their particular area who has not shown up except to try to regain leadership in that area and appeared again briefly when this non attendance issue came to light. The Devotion to their area of expertise is noted and appreciated but counselors must be multi faceted and contribute in all areas to be effective for the people they represent.

We have one or two who have appeared only to vote and a few posts beyond their actual votes.


and one whose recent absence is due to a family illness and which is very uncharacteristic of their usual performance of any duty and is of course understandable to all counselors.

And we have about 6 who have been consistently participating and one of those has since resigned and another is a RL emergent situation now. The counselor coming on board for the resigned counselor has been catching up and has participated as able in any vote not already weighed in on by previous counsel.

I hope that provides the answers you seek in your question about "ghost" counselors.

and I can say that after this issue of absence and apathy was raised that an issue that was on the table for voting and had already been extended beyond the 2 day limit to attempt to resolve the vote has in fact received a total of 9 votes! the second most attended vote to date after the Duchess election.

So regardless of how unpleasant this business has been it HAS achieved a positive result so far and I regret it came to such to achieve results but conventional methods and personal accountability seemed to be lacking and it became apparent public accountability was the only recourse.

I encourage you continue with any and all input so we can achieve a working counsel for our county!