[Discussion] On the matter of Voting in Public

Per the previsous discussion which was not formally titled I propose we move ALL Council votes to the PUBLIC COUNCIL FORUM that are not related to Security matters.

This council has seen constant lack of participation and input and the people of Somerset who placed us in office have every right to know who is working for them and how they are voting on the economical and legal aspects that affect their lives and livelihoods.

Citizens have spoken up in the public discussion area in positive agreement with being aboe to see how the voices that speak for them do speak for them and I champion that cause.

Let the people see their government at work. Let the people have the transparency that was promised them.

Already the mere mention of the lack of activity and apathy has produced 2 more council members who have been absent of late so this measure should perhaps bring all 12 people who promised to represent the people to the table to do just that!

I support transparency, so I would be in favor of this. There are, however, a few caveats.

1) I have a GREAT fear in partisan politics. We have all been unfortunate enough to fall victim to partisan politics, and I fear that this, if used improperly, can add fuel to the fire.

2) One of the reasons for a lack of participation, I imagine, is the sometimes unwelcoming tone some councilors offer to others in the private council room.

3) I know that there are A LOT of players who do not know of this off-site forum. There probably even more who do know about it but do not check it that often. I therefor think that the RK forum could be a better place for the votes to take place.

This all being said, I repeat that I am in favor of the spirit of this move.

Is it possible for anyone in this council to propose something without the other side considering it a partisan ploy? Its it not possible that there are people on both sides that genuinely have the best interests of Somerset at heart? Does the specter of POLITICS have to be raised every time something is suggested?

I really do not care where we do business. I suspect it is a partisan ploy that some want it moved back to RK and a reverse partisan ploy to keep everything here. We all know no one has had an ioriginal idea of their own. It's all be played out behind closed doors with men in gray directing every public move.

I support the move of none strategic discussion and votes to a public room of smarter people than my self's choice, here, RK, timbucktoo. I care not.

Gregarious wrote:

Is it possible for anyone in this council to propose something without the other side considering it a partisan ploy? Its it not possible that there are people on both sides that genuinely have the best interests of Somerset at heart? Does the specter of POLITICS have to be raised every time something is suggested?

Yes, good Sir, that is a very distinct possibility. I personally do believe that there are people on both (or all three) sides that have the best interest of Somerset at heart- that is why we decided to run for council. The specter of politics will forever haunt us, however, until we drop the partisan jabs. I honestly believe that we WILL see the END of such extreme partisan politics come to fruition. We have all heard the People, and so we are heading down that road right now.

For the record, I feel I need to clarify myself. I do not believe that the Honorable Judge Ellsbeth offered this discussion to further any partisan agenda at all. I apologize if it seemed that way. I merely meant to say that this could be used (improperly) in the future to further the bad politics we have seen in the past. I do not think that this should prevent us from making this change, I simply wanted to state my hesitation in the discussion.

Thank you for bringing it to my attention that my words could very easily be misunderstood.

For Somerset!
Rebo

And I will apologize as well Honourable Rebo. I did not intend, if you read it that way, to point the finger at you. I do sometimes get exasperated with the accusations from all sides of partisan politics. Some times my fingers get ahead of my mind. Most times I just delete the post. Perhaps this time I should have as well, but I felt it needed to be said.

Now how do you see this potentially abused? If we try to think of the easiest ways someone can abuse this idea to further personal political agenda, then we can set checks in place to prevent it.

One I can think of is trying to run something through council while opposition is weak in numbers. If we also publicly post our absences then it would be obvious to all when this is being tried. Perhaps a law about not bringing discussion to vote while 50% or more of the council is on announced leave? Something like this? However this could also be abused by the opposition to try and delay and obstruct council from accomplishing anything. It is an interesting dilemma.

This thread sprang from a thread I started in the private chambers, in which I pointed out several persons who hadn't voted on an important issue. I didn't point out party affiliations, I merely named names. For the record, the party breakdown was almost equal - all parties had 2 inactive persons.

I would hope that we would never have more than about 3 council members absent at any one time, save, perhaps, over a weekend. If 1/2 or more were away, we could do nothing save our continuing business, but would be entirely ineffectual until a quorum (7 persons) could be reached.

For security reasons, I suggest that we think strongly before posting such a list of absent members in public. I would prefer, for instance, that the WoS not know of, say, our Captain's absence over a weekend, should such occur.

You need to keep in mind then that having a public vote at a time when councillors are absent will make that fact more obvious to the bogeymen.

I am in favour of moving as many discussions into public threads as is deemed safe. The discussions don't give away so much information as to who is absent, and are more meaningful to the citizens than most voting threads, which generally consist only of ayes and nays. I hope the council also considers more public consultations, and even referenda for certain issues. This way we can do more than allow the citizens to spot the good guys and the bad guys on the council, but actually involve them in the government of their county.

I think we need one kind of forum where only councillors can post and read for the secure issues, a second kind where only councillors can post, but all can read, for general council discussions and votes, and a third kind for private negotiations between ambassadors and councillors, or mayors and councillors. The third kind is the most difficult to administer, since it ma require more frequent changes of individual memberships. There is also the question as to who should administer such forums. My preference is that impartial RK admins should do it. Otherwise if we are truly concerned about security, we should also consider making forum admin exclusively a formal council position.

As I have stated over and over again I am in favor of this when it does not concern security issues. \My only concern is that some will use it in political agendas to belittle their fellow councilors as we have already seen happen.

What political agendas? the votes are on COUNTY MATTERS the only agendas are the GOOD OF THE COUNTY and people can see from discussion and vote who is representing their good...who is listening to their voices...their opinions....and who is showing up to make the decisions that affect their lives.

there is nothing political to come out of that unless you think that one party showing a consistent level of commitment and attendance makes it political....but that is not the point, it is an inevitable obvious to be sure but it is certainly not the point.

The Point is the people were promised a great deal and now they do not have the people here to deliver.

and the ones of us who do show up consistently and do our jobs have our hands tied when we cannot even reach a majority on a simple vote without going public to point out the Emperor has no clothes aka the council is lacking in bodies who are active.


I could go down the various party platforms IF this was about party politics and show the people promise by promise what has not occurred, what has not even been brought forward for discussion, who has not even shown up after making such grand gestures in the campaigns but I wont because those were their promises and if they never live up to them then that is between them and their voting constituency next time around.

What I do care about is all of these people show up and speak up and vote period and if PUBLIC ACCOUNTABILITY makes that happen then By Jah I let it go public and let it happen.

and again I repeat it has made a difference already as now 3 previously mostly MIA counselors have made it into Private council chambers to either vote or speak out on discussions in progress.

so It can only get better by going this route.

the people will be able to see it is NOT Partisan politics that have stalled this council. It is absence and apathy

Ellsbeth wrote:

What political agendas? the votes are on COUNTY MATTERS the only agendas are the GOOD OF THE COUNTY and people can see from discussion and vote who is representing their good...who is listening to their voices...their opinions....and who is showing up to make the decisions that affect their lives.

there is nothing political to come out of that unless you think that one party showing a consistent level of commitment and attendance makes it political....but that is not the point, it is an inevitable obvious to be sure but it is certainly not the point.

The Point is the people were promised a great deal and now they do not have the people here to deliver.

and the ones of us who do show up consistently and do our jobs have our hands tied when we cannot even reach a majority on a simple vote without going public to point out the Emperor has no clothes aka the council is lacking in bodies who are active.


I could go down the various party platforms IF this was about party politics and show the people promise by promise what has not occurred, what has not even been brought forward for discussion, who has not even shown up after making such grand gestures in the campaigns but I wont because those were their promises and if they never live up to them then that is between them and their voting constituency next time around.

What I do care about is all of these people show up and speak up and vote period and if PUBLIC ACCOUNTABILITY makes that happen then By Jah I let it go public and let it happen.

and again I repeat it has made a difference already as now 3 previously mostly MIA counselors have made it into Private council chambers to either vote or speak out on discussions in progress.

so It can only get better by going this route.

the people will be able to see it is NOT Partisan politics that have stalled this council. It is absence and apathy

They made their way into council chambers and voted because I contacted them and mentioned it.

I really think this has gone far enough and it is time to get back to the business of the county.

You and Chardy have more then made it evident you don't like me and are politicing to that end. The points been made. Can we go back to conducting county business or do you intend to continue this through out the mandate?

It is what it is and no amount of ranting or name calling or politically motivated smear campaigns are going to change it at this point.
Can we at least put it aside until the next election and get back to our job as councilors?

No we cannot because the issue is imperative to the functioning of THIS Councul

I have made the disucssion topic as required by law and I have made a move for a vote on the matter and members of the Public have expressed interest in being able to see their council at work.

After the required two days discussion the motion has been seconded for a vote so a vote must needs occur by law.

This is not personal for me. You may wish to wear it as such and if so that is your prerogative but it is not my responsibility if you wish to take it personally. I have brought forward this discussion for the citizens who deserve to know why council is stalled and who they have put into office that is not showing up and doing their jobs and how frequent their absences are.

I DO appreciate you personally contacting the 3 who have shown up to say something and vote. I am just sorry it took a personal plea from you to get them there. As they were elected to be there and serve the people and should not require a personal invitation.

However as is my right as a counsellor to put forth a proposal I have done so and discussion is in progress to meet the 2 day requirement subsequent to the vote.

No one is questioning the vote. That is council business and will be addressed.

I was referring to all the rhetoric and argumentive name calling and such.

People can see what is going on.

Again I have not called anyone a name. I have pointed out there are problems caused by inactivity and absence. I have pointed out how this affects the council and I have pointed out it is disrespectful to the people of Somerset.

I again challenge you to find ONE post where I called anyone a name.

There are none. and that fact cannot be disputed.

it does appear that you keep trying to make this seem about personal agenda and dislike because you want to sidetrack the real issue with distraction but the issue is what is at the heart of this matter not any one person and least of all you as you do happen to show up and participate so in fact this issue is not about you at all as I cannot in any way fault your level of participation.

I did not name you specifically. Stop being so defensive please.

I have no concern about myself but in my position I feel I have the responsibility to look out for ALL council members.


OOC - Frankly this is the last thing on my mind at the moment.
Budicca did not log on last night after work, as she said she would and always does, and has not logged on this morning, as she always does, not for 24 hours now actually and I am more then a little worried.

OOC :She and her Father have been in my prayers since I learned of his illness and I certainly will continue to keep them there as I am sure every one of us wish only the best outcome for her family at this time. I have nothing but genuine concern for her.




IC : You feel you must look out for the counselors and that is fine, but I on the other hand feel we were elected by the people to look out for the people not just cover each other's behinds. I will not make excuses for anyone in my own party just for the record. Either they show up or they need to recuse themselves as well so I am not making this about parties I am making this about any individuals who took a seat and then neglected their charge willfully and knowingly.

The 2 day time period required by law for discussion of a motion has been met and surpassed and this Motion has been made into a formal poll in council chambers which is set to run 2 days as is required by law.

The 2 day vote to enact this motion has concluded and the 10th counselor to vote on the matter got their vote in under the wire so we in fact concluded this vote with the 2nd highest attended vote on record this term. 10 counselors attended the vote and 9 voted in favor of this motion, One counsellor voted an abstain and 2 were not in attendance.

The result is a majority in favor and therefore People of Somerset you will now be able to view the course of every non-security related vote from here out.

Congratulations on this victory for Public accountability.

This vote having drawn this amount of attendance in the alloted 2 day vote period was in and of itself a victory as it brought the counselors back to the counsel room for the most part.

I think public votes are generally a good thing. I suggest that voting threads should be clearly designated as such by beginning with "VOTE" in all caps. Each councillor should state their vote and, if they like, their reasons. There should be a clear time limit on voting so we don't get into the valid/invalid vote dispute again.

I'm sorry I was absent in council deliberations these past two weeks, I told the Duchess that I would be on RL vacation and unable to participate. Bellos had my proxy. I thought that if there were any need, either of them would communicate my situation to the rest of the council. It is not my intention to be inactive on this council.

Garraway! Welcome, sir! There is a LOT of catching up for you to do. Let me know if you have any questions, I will gladly fill you in, as I imagine anyone on the council would do for you.

This vote has already carried and is in effect. The current law already provides a time limit for discussion and voting.