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 Discussion - Sanction of the Octavian Legion.

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Chardonnay
Gregarious
Allikath
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Allikath
County Councillor
Allikath


Registration date : 2007-02-13

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Discussion - Sanction of the Octavian Legion. Empty
PostSubject: Discussion - Sanction of the Octavian Legion.   Discussion - Sanction of the Octavian Legion. Icon_minitimeTue Sep 04, 2007 11:50 pm

I received this in my mail from DutchBart of the Octavian Legion.
Please read and offer your thoughts and comments.
Thank You.


Quote :
Somerset Military Charter

The Octavian Legion, will uphold the rights and laws of Somerset as long as they stand with the common morals of England's citizens.

As a result of upholding the rights of Somerset, the Octavian Legion will be allowed to recruit within the borders of Somerset, and at the same time, promote the joining of the county militia. In turn, the Octavian Legion will also work with the Somerset Armed Service, in order to bring a more secure and united effort in the protection of the County.

If deemed necessary by the command of the Octavian Legion, Somerset will receive aid and protection from all forces including Foreign Powers. This including if non residents of Somerset are needed. Meaning that Octavian Legionnaires, not living in Somerset, will be allowed to move through and into Somerset, but will give prior notice.

Humanitarian Aid, which includes all efforts that don’t involve warfare or the use of fighting, will be given allowance for the aid of Somerset people without notice. If the Council of Somerset is in need of Legion forces for aid, in any way, they will consult with the command of the Octavian Legion, and will provide all details of the mission to be accepted by the commanders and officers of the Legion. If the mission or aid is deemed unnecessary or not of the good will of the people, then it will be declined, and discarded.

Any amendments made to this charter, will be sent to the command of the Legion for approval.
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Gregarious

Gregarious


Localisation : Bath
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Registration date : 2007-02-24

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Discussion - Sanction of the Octavian Legion. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Discussion - Sanction of the Octavian Legion.   Discussion - Sanction of the Octavian Legion. Icon_minitimeWed Sep 05, 2007 5:47 am

Julius Octavius is now in Scotland, was never a friend of Somerset and is now not a friend of England. I have no doubt that most of the Octavian Legion are solid trustworthy Englishmen. But I cannot say the same for the Leadership.

I personally an not in favour of giving the Octavia Legion any legitimacy in Somerset.

I definitely do not like them QUALIFYING when they will respect our laws.

I do not like them having sole discretion as to when they will support us.

There is nothing in there for Somerset. Only the rights of the Octavian Legion. I see nothing in here worth commenting on as a councilor of Somerset.
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Chardonnay
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PostSubject: Re: Discussion - Sanction of the Octavian Legion.   Discussion - Sanction of the Octavian Legion. Icon_minitimeWed Sep 05, 2007 6:45 am

I have trouble with at least two parts of this document.

Quote :
The Octavian Legion, will uphold the rights and laws of Somerset as long as they stand with the common morals of England's citizens.
Who is to determine what "the common morals" are?

Quote :
If the mission or aid is deemed unnecessary or not of the good will of the people, then it will be declined, and discarded
This appears to leave it to the OL to decide when they will offer support.

Too, I agree with Greg about JO. He has not shown himself a friend of Somerset in the past, and when last seen in the Somerset Inn, was doing his very best to create discord and distrust of the Council.

There is nothing gained for Somerset in this "offer", but much gained by the OL. Such one-sided treaties are not to my taste.
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Ellsbeth
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Ellsbeth


Registration date : 2007-02-17

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PostSubject: Re: Discussion - Sanction of the Octavian Legion.   Discussion - Sanction of the Octavian Legion. Icon_minitimeWed Sep 05, 2007 7:51 am

I concur with points both Counselors have made so far. JO accused Somerset of cheating the rest of the Kingdom and working solely for self gain and glory. Called all of the counselors on counsel at the time crooks ( many of whom still serve and none of whom were ever guilty of such distinction) He has since made his allegiance to foreign soil so I see no reason to subject Somerset citizens to what very well could be the empty promises of person who has been proven to toss falsehoods about with ease.
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Atri

Atri


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Registration date : 2007-05-21

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PostSubject: Re: Discussion - Sanction of the Octavian Legion.   Discussion - Sanction of the Octavian Legion. Icon_minitimeWed Sep 05, 2007 8:50 am

I confess I bristled a bit at the wording on a couple passages there also. Being a peasant girl, my first reaction was "who the bloody hell do they think THEY are?"

Having said that, it should be noted that JO is not [so far as I understand] in command of the OL any longer, but now commands the Army Of Scotland. So it might not be fair or open minded to paint Dutchbart's offer with the same brush stained with JO's prior behavior. It is, at least it would seem to me, at least possible that this is an offer in good faith of some form of recognition and cooperation, but is simply poorly worded.

But as Gregarious and others point out, what's in it for Sommerset?

Other questions I have:
Is there any scenario when having the support of OL troops would be of use to us? [i.e. do we need them?]

Would allowing SAS troops to be recruited and serve dual duty yield any benefits? for instance: as the OL sometimes interacts with unsavory elements, would having someone on the inside give us a source of intelligence which could prove useful?

Would the possible benefits of some form of at least superficial detente with the NEW OL leadership outweigh the risks posed?

I dont know the answers to any of these. Rebo, having served on the town council with me will confirm that I am the nitpicking question girl, not the answer giver.

As currently worded, I wouldn't favor this agreement, but I wont rule out some form of understanding with OL if the right wording [a bit more respectful of Sommerset's authority] is agreed upon. We shouldn't dismiss it out of hand.

We have, I believe, some form of understanding with Anto's NNGO army. How is that one worded?

Atri
fascinated by all this secret squirrel stuff that goes on in here, lol
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Rebo

Rebo


Localisation : Chard, Somerset ( RL: USA)
Registration date : 2007-03-05

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Discussion - Sanction of the Octavian Legion. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Discussion - Sanction of the Octavian Legion.   Discussion - Sanction of the Octavian Legion. Icon_minitimeWed Sep 05, 2007 9:02 am

I admittedly do not really know much at all about the Octavian Legion or of Julius, so I trust others' opinions who know him more. But....allow me to be a devil's advocate.

1) With the vast exodus of many of our SAS our boarders are less secure. We boarder 3 counties so we will need a lot of protection from possible invading forces.

2) WoS are greatly increasing their activity, as is NNGO. Even if WoS will be seeking revenge on Chester county in the very near future (for the death of Dark Devil), they are still becoming increasingly active. WoS is recruiting heavily in Cornwall and Somerset counties. Yes, SOMERSET! I have heard from several sources that the Wolves have contacted them. I imagine this means that they will first go after Chester, when that is finished (whether they are successful or not) they will move on to new places. They have a fairly dependent refuge in Worcester county, which boarders Gloucester directly to the north. With Worcester being both a refuge and a very strategic location, and with Somerset's wealth, I would not be surprised if we were their next target.

3) I assume that with Julius gone, he is not the leadership in England anymore. I wonder if it is DutchBart. It appears that most of you have a problem with Julius not with the Legion.


So with less defence and a greater need for it, we may be wise to accept offers for help. That being said, my fellow councilors bring up some very good points.

I can only hope this is confidential.
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Rebo

Rebo


Localisation : Chard, Somerset ( RL: USA)
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PostSubject: Re: Discussion - Sanction of the Octavian Legion.   Discussion - Sanction of the Octavian Legion. Icon_minitimeWed Sep 05, 2007 9:11 am

I agree with everything Atri says.

And to draw specific attention to one thing which is of utmost importance and of extreme confidentiality.

Atri wrote:
Would allowing SAS troops to be recruited and serve dual duty yield any benefits? for instance: as the OL sometimes interacts with unsavory elements, would having someone on the inside give us a source of intelligence which could prove useful?
As far as I understand it, our intelligence took a huge hit with the exodus to Scotland. Intelligence is extremely important to have for our safety. One thing we would certainly need to be wary of is WoS also has a vast intelligence network. If we get people on the inside with them, it can go the other way.



Becoming Paranoid,
Rebo
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Atri

Atri


Age : 44
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PostSubject: Re: Discussion - Sanction of the Octavian Legion.   Discussion - Sanction of the Octavian Legion. Icon_minitimeWed Sep 05, 2007 9:12 am

Rebo wrote:
I can only hope this is confidential.

Shocked I should certainly hope so.


Yes, the DD incident in Chester may be either a tempest in a teapot, or a full blown storm brewing. Krak whathisname from poland seems to have ties to the wolves as well, and no love for Sommerset or CHester, and has already been fostering economic "attacks" on English towns.

I concur the threats are real.
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Atri

Atri


Age : 44
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PostSubject: Re: Discussion - Sanction of the Octavian Legion.   Discussion - Sanction of the Octavian Legion. Icon_minitimeWed Sep 05, 2007 9:20 am

Rebo wrote:
I agree with everything Atri says.

You are gonna make some lucky woman a fine husband.



Atri

Sorry sir, couldn't resist. Very Happy
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Rebo

Rebo


Localisation : Chard, Somerset ( RL: USA)
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Discussion - Sanction of the Octavian Legion. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Discussion - Sanction of the Octavian Legion.   Discussion - Sanction of the Octavian Legion. Icon_minitimeWed Sep 05, 2007 9:26 am

Rebo blushes, then runs behind a tree when he hears a twig crack....is it a wolf!?
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Rebo

Rebo


Localisation : Chard, Somerset ( RL: USA)
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PostSubject: Re: Discussion - Sanction of the Octavian Legion.   Discussion - Sanction of the Octavian Legion. Icon_minitimeWed Sep 05, 2007 11:28 am

There is a somewhat similar discussion going on over in Wiltshire. It is long, and I haven't gotten through it all, so I do not know if it digresses into personal attacks (i see that it was locked by the censors). But the begining of the discussion has some use at least.

Cheers!
Rebo


here it is:
http://forum.renaissancekingdoms.com/viewtopic.php?t=44954&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
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Gregarious

Gregarious


Localisation : Bath
Position : Lieutenant of Bath
Registration date : 2007-02-24

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PostSubject: Re: Discussion - Sanction of the Octavian Legion.   Discussion - Sanction of the Octavian Legion. Icon_minitimeWed Sep 05, 2007 5:18 pm

Good points all. I did not make myself clear. There may be room to negotiate with the Legion. The way this proposal is worded is not even a starting point though. All the decisions are left in the hands of the Legion. They are not bound by it to do anything.

If they are a force for good and an army ready to defend England, then I would expect them to take all the actions that are left to their discretion in this paper anyway if somerset were attacked.

you points about Julius are well taken by me. You are right and I did try to point that out. Julius' error and infamy in somerset should not reflect on the Legion. But the fact that his family still will be in positions of power within the Legion leaves me with a wary feeling about any official dealings with them.

Letting our people join the legion may lead to split loyalties. I do not like the idea of SAS troopers belonging to multiple military orders. We want our troopers loyalty to be first and foremost to Somerset so we know they will answer when called.

Hypno and Sajanzv had excellent networks of information. There loss has been a big hit to Somerset intelligence no doubt. But we have other avenues of information.

Perhaps we should renew the reporting and watching of our town lists for unwelcome guests.
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Allikath
County Councillor
Allikath


Registration date : 2007-02-13

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PostSubject: Re: Discussion - Sanction of the Octavian Legion.   Discussion - Sanction of the Octavian Legion. Icon_minitimeThu Sep 06, 2007 11:44 am

Good points by all.

I think there is no question we all agree the proposal as worded is unacceptable.
There may be pluses to negotiating a different contract but I don't really see any worth entertaining.
If only to use them for information a seperate deal could be struck with individuals in their fold to provide that info.
I certainly would not want them recruiting within our county. We need to start our own recruiting campaign for the SAS, That chore should get going next term.

The WOS are no threat to Somerset at this time. The people that they might recruit in our county won't be a threat either I think.

Anto and the NNGO will be busy elsewhere for a while but we do have a good relationship with them and we have an agreement with the KOP as well and they have permission to operate in Somerset unless that agreement has expired.

As some may know I have never been a fan of Julius and the Octavian Legion but that is from the past. The leadership and philosophy may have changed.
I see no benefit to Somerset to pursue negotiations with them but if the council believes it prudent I will continue. Otherwise I will politely express our concerns and the fact we already have agreements with other groups and decline their "gracious and generous" invitation.
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Vàna Rúndóttir




Registration date : 2007-04-04

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PostSubject: Re: Discussion - Sanction of the Octavian Legion.   Discussion - Sanction of the Octavian Legion. Icon_minitimeFri Sep 07, 2007 11:50 am

As far as possible I think we should be on good terms with all military forces in England. Their statement about adhering to our laws under the condition that our laws do not deny common morals is acceptable to me, since our laws should do that. It seems to me that they are understandably simply wary of Somerset's tendency not to recognise people's rights in law. I think we should ask them to be more explicit about their request, not to water it down, and we should welcome their input to our debate on legal issues. There is nothing to be gained by rejecting people.
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Atri

Atri


Age : 44
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PostSubject: Re: Discussion - Sanction of the Octavian Legion.   Discussion - Sanction of the Octavian Legion. Icon_minitimeFri Sep 07, 2007 11:00 pm

I see your points, Vana ma'am; and I don't entirely disagree. BUT I am more than a little wary of this bit:
Vàna Rúndóttir wrote:
... and we should welcome their input to our debate on legal issues.

I think our citizens can easily enough effect changes in the law via the ballot box.

I am not sure how wise it is to offer official rrecognition to any outside military group who is then allowed to pick and chose whcih of our laws they get to support. What of those they oppose? Would some less than honorable leader of the OL at some future point be able to use this agreement as justification to then march AGAINST sommersert to overturn a law they opposed?

I realize the idea is a bit far fetched, but a document of this sort has to be foward looking and consider all possible repercussions.

We already have stricken the law that forbids non county residents from participating in political discussion. If any OL troop wants to do so, they can do so as a citizen of England. We dont need any treaty giving a military organization any additional authority in our county unless there is some tangible benefit to Sommerset, and then only if it is VERY carefully worded to avoid any possible negatives.

I favor Her Grace's "Thanks, but No Thanks" approach for the moment.

Just a temporary councilor's peasant-opinion.

Atri
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Vàna Rúndóttir




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PostSubject: Re: Discussion - Sanction of the Octavian Legion.   Discussion - Sanction of the Octavian Legion. Icon_minitimeSat Sep 08, 2007 10:40 am

People are already free to pick and choose which laws they like or will obey. Military groups wishing to challenge us don't need our authorisation to do that. By input to debate what I meant was they should tell us clearly how they would like to see our legal codex improved, what 'morality' needs to be protected in law. We can then consider whether we think they have a good point and debate a change to the laws if we think their idea is good. If we don't like their idea then perhaps we would have reason not to authorise them. I think dialogue on issues is good with anyone, friend or foe, and rejecting people rather than ideas is not good. Even enemies can help us improve our laws if we get to the real issues, by pointing out what it is they object to. But I don't think in this case we are talking about enemies, I think they could be good supporters of Somerset, if we manage things properly.
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Gregarious

Gregarious


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PostSubject: Re: Discussion - Sanction of the Octavian Legion.   Discussion - Sanction of the Octavian Legion. Icon_minitimeSun Sep 09, 2007 10:31 am

I do not know if it is true or not, but I am told that Julius has quit the Octavian Legion, that Dutch Bart is the new leader and has been for some time. That should n ot have any impact on our opinion of this offer.

This does not change my opinion that this agreement as written does nothing for Somerset. It does not compel the legion to aid us, it does not compel them to respect us. It gives them rights, but does not protect our rights in the least.

Really, who are we here to listen to? The citizens of Somerset who prosper or bleed by our work or the rest of England who has no personal interest in our success or failure? I think we are here to lead and protect Somerset. I think we are eminently qualified to do that.

I do agree with councilor Vana though that continued dialog with the legion cannot hurt. This proposal is completely unacceptable, a future one may well answer all our needs and desires.
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